Polish Infantry Redundancy (Eugen, can you please respond?)

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Re: Polish Infantry Redundancy

Postby empire_today » Fri 13 Apr 2012 15:39

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Re: Polish Infantry Redundancy

Postby Cruswald » Fri 13 Apr 2012 23:34

Well, I agree that Pact infantry, especially, Polish and czech has been badly hit by the nerf bat. 

By category as defined by Deuzerre in his excellent guides.
- For rifle squads, piechota and motostrelci are not anymore able to fullfill the role of the front line holders. They are simply too few. For me, in this category, an important thing is numbers of men. To select one of these, you get 120 men. In comparison, NATO receive 320 men with jagers or fusiliers, and even 200 with their best unit, chasseurs FAMAS. to put their availability to 32 would make them a little bit more worth of choice.
The only viable option now are the motostrelki. Not a bad deal if you give them VET2, their accuracy becomes
8-9-12. Better than the chasseur FAMAS. And with their cheapest transport, the price is 22, not a bad deal.

- For shock troops, I think that the spades and the Vysadkari, should get an increase by 4 of their availability. Spades would be on par with the Mot-schutzen, so the choice would be more balanced between a good all around unit (mot shutzen) and a fast carried unit with some weakness in AT accuracy. And then your best unit (vysadkari) : good all around and fast transport. Available in lesser quantity but usable one (like the legion FAMAS which is the best shock troop available to NATO).

Finally, regarding the OP, I don't find that Polish infantry is useless. Agreed about piechotcha, they should need an increase of one point in rifle accuracy and in availability (+8) and +4 for the spades.
Polishish infantry fills a niche. Very good against infantry, poor in AT but comes in fast transport. They fill the same role than the british infantry for NATO. And there is the engineer unit, second only to the spetsnaz for pure infantry combat in middle of woods.

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Re: Polish Infantry Redundancy

Postby empire_today » Sat 14 Apr 2012 01:26

Cruswald wrote:Well, I agree that Pact infantry, especially, Polish and czech has been badly hit by the nerf bat. 

By category as defined by Deuzerre in his excellent guides.
- For rifle squads, piechota and motostrelci are not anymore able to fullfill the role of the front line holders. They are simply too few. For me, in this category, an important thing is numbers of men. To select one of these, you get 120 men. In comparison, NATO receive 320 men with jagers or fusiliers, and even 200 with their best unit, chasseurs FAMAS. to put their availability to 32 would make them a little bit more worth of choice.
The only viable option now are the motostrelki. Not a bad deal if you give them VET2, their accuracy becomes
8-9-12. Better than the chasseur FAMAS. And with their cheapest transport, the price is 22, not a bad deal.

- For shock troops, I think that the spades and the Vysadkari, should get an increase by 4 of their availability. Spades would be on par with the Mot-schutzen, so the choice would be more balanced between a good all around unit (mot shutzen) and a fast carried unit with some weakness in AT accuracy. And then your best unit (vysadkari) : good all around and fast transport. Available in lesser quantity but usable one (like the legion FAMAS which is the best shock troop available to NATO).

Finally, regarding the OP, I don't find that Polish infantry is useless. Agreed about piechotcha, they should need an increase of one point in rifle accuracy and in availability (+8) and +4 for the spades.
Polish infantry fills a niche. Very good against infantry, poor in AT but comes in fast transport. They fill the same role than the british infantry for NATO. And there is the engineer unit, second only to the spetsnaz for pure infantry combat in middle of woods.


You're right, calling them useless is a bit overkill, but they can't fill the role of basic infantry now.

You're also right about the Motostrelki, they're not bad at all, but that 1 extra accuracy point and very cheap cost really helped me out when I first got this game, but it helped because I could counter the NATO infantry with both superior numbers, and semi-good quality.

And yes, they do fill the "superior infantry" niche, and they're the main reason why I play Pact a lot.

Back when I first tried Pact, I was dis-encouraged by the fact that Motostrelki had bad anti infantry capability, on my first game, they didn't perform the missions I gave them very well (mainly forest clearing, when they did succeed, they'd suffer extreme losses), and their price basically made me think Pact wasn't right for me. I decided to check out the other units in the game through the armory, then I remembered that Poland was supposed to have elite infantry. Immediately, I decided to spend my first 5-10 stars on Piechota Zmech, and Spades.

Needless to say, they did good, and did what I wanted, this was back when all Pact infantry units (besides SF) had a 40 unit cap. Even if they failed, I could buy a few more units for a cheaper price and try wave 2 or a different approach. I'd never field a single Spade until endgame, when I (or my opponent) was on the verge of defeat, and I needed a quick, and effective task force to finish the job.

When all the paras got their caps decreased, I still used Piechota for the shock role sometimes, they did okay. (this was before I realized the 2HE and 1HE difference)

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Re: Polish Infantry Redundancy

Postby Kovlovsky » Sat 14 Apr 2012 04:31

empire_today wrote: And yeah, I was a bit surprised to learn the endless hordes of conscripts were outgunned and outnumbered by NATO infantry forces.


In fact, the French was a conscripted army until it started to be phased out starting in 1996. The German army was also conscripted during the Cold War and still is, but it's in a professionnalisation process. They had professionnal and NCOs though.

P. S. : The Nationale Volksarmee had professionnal NCOs too. The Soviet didn't have professionnal NCOs, but I don't know for other Warsaw Pact armies.

Edit : corrected a mistake.
Last edited by Kovlovsky on Sun 15 Apr 2012 02:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Polish Infantry Redundancy

Postby empire_today » Sat 14 Apr 2012 05:51

Kovlovsky wrote:
empire_today wrote: ...


In fact, the French was a conscripted army until it started to be phased out starting in 1996. The German army was also conscripted during the Cold War and still is, but it's in a professionnalisation process. They had professionnal and NCOs though.

P. S. : The Nationale Volksarmee had professionnal NCOs too. The Soviet didn't have professionnal NCOs, but I don't know for other Warsaw Pact armies.


Didn't know about that.. well, it was cool reading a thing or two about it.

Anyway, I was referring to numerical superiority, sure the USSR didn't always have the best conventional infantry force, but you can't deny the fact that they were -very- large in numbers, no matter the quality, that's because it took multiple countries to actually form the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, Russia was just one. (Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine, a ton of others that I forgot)

Regardless of how well they are trained, to a conscript, their mandatory service is either torture, or 2 of the best years of their lives, the latter response is rare, and this applies to every army in the modern world.

After looking around wikipedia, France's personnel estimates to be 180,000, Germany's is 72,000, Russia's hits 300,000, now imagine how big the USSR would've been. Though weather or not wikipedia sources would be completely valid, it's the only "reliable" source I could think of.

Germany's armies were indeed very well trained and nationalistic because they were reforming to a federal republic and a socialist state from an extremely militaristic fascist government.. militarism comes from fascism naturally. Their "grenadiers" performed very well during WWII, and thanks to their infantry doctrine, combined with USSR's gigantic mobility focus, and NATO's combined arms focus, they did well in the Cold War. Germany might've conscripted in the timeline of the game, but they don't conscript anymore, neither does France.

Professional soldiers existed in every army since the creation of "infantry", but in large armies, they are a minority. The professional troops within the USSR might've been small, but that was due to the USSR's centralized economy. Nowadays, professional troops are still a minority in most armies, but they're still there.

French Foreign Legionnaires aren't filled with drafted soldiers, Chasseurs are highly mobile light infantry, and function(ed) the same way the dreadful Jaegers did. I doubt either of these guys were filled drafted troops, either.

But hey, it's not about the French infantry, or the German infantry of either side (which are very well balanced!), it's about Polish infantry, and their cap which unbalances their role as basic rifle squads.
Last edited by empire_today on Sun 15 Apr 2012 03:02, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Polish Infantry Redundancy

Postby Tac Error » Sat 14 Apr 2012 06:10

In the Soviet Army, the NCO corps was weak because few professionals made a career in the enlisted ranks. Of course, it can be argued that Soviet way of war would find small fully professional armies unsuitable for Soviet military needs, in the same way that a large land army focused on operational level fighting would not suit the needs of countries like the United States or Great Britain. A lack of a Western-style corps of NCsO wouldn't be a problem in a large-scale operational level mechanized war in Europe in my view, but it was a definite issue in lower-scale counterinsurgency as we have seen in the Soviet-Afghan War. (I recommend Lester Grau's book, "The Bear Went Over the Mountain" :))

Indeed, "quantity is a quality all of its own", but it's a more complex matter than the popular perception of "weight of numbers".
SLONIK MARSHAL

"Large mechanized forces always defeat small mechanized forces." - M. N. Tukhachevsky

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Re: Polish Infantry Redundancy

Postby sgnl05 » Sat 14 Apr 2012 06:52

I think it makes sense for Spads to have somewhat low availability, because you're getting damn good stats for the price. HE 2 makes a big difference.

On the other hand Zmech seem pretty useless because the half squad size means they're really only doing half their stated damage compared to a full 10 man squad. I'd say just make them 10 man squads and be done with it.

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Re: Polish Infantry Redundancy

Postby empire_today » Sat 14 Apr 2012 17:22

sgnl05 wrote:I think it makes sense for Spads to have somewhat low availability, because you're getting damn good stats for the price. HE 2 makes a big difference.

On the other hand Zmech seem pretty useless because the half squad size means they're really only doing half their stated damage compared to a full 10 man squad. I'd say just make them 10 man squads and be done with it.


Didn't notice that, I just did some testing about that

I figured they did that so they were meant fill more of an "auxiliary" role for the Motostrelki after the patch, while balancing out the numbers, but no, they didn't, Piechota and MotorstrelCi is always only 5 man.

And Spadochroniarze is very good, but Mot. Schutzen are superior to them in every factor now for only 5 extra points.. the Spades are still "okay" for now I guess, it's just that the Piechota can't do what they're meant to do now.

Tac Error wrote: but it was a definite issue in lower-scale counterinsurgency as we have seen in the Soviet-Afghan War. (I recommend Lester Grau's book, "The Bear Went Over the Mountain" :))


Ah.. if only I didn't spoil the ending by watching a documentary about guerilla warfare.

Right destination, wrong doctrine.. the USSR didn't have a target to hit, and they didn't expect to fight in this fashion, I guess the trust in mass formations work against conventional armies, those which most European countries possess.

It was pretty funny watching how they had to rely on their special forces to stop some armed militia in the hills, in the end it all went downhill thanks to that Stinger they got their hands on.

Anyway.. if Eugen could say they'll fix it in the future, I'd be happy.

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Re: Polish Infantry Redundancy

Postby Cruswald » Sat 14 Apr 2012 22:09

sgnl05 wrote:I think it makes sense for Spads to have somewhat low availability, because you're getting damn good stats for the price. HE 2 makes a big difference.

On the other hand Zmech seem pretty useless because the half squad size means they're really only doing half their stated damage compared to a full 10 man squad. I'd say just make them 10 man squads and be done with it.


That's not the way I understand their stated statistics. I believe piechota Smech have an output of 1HE as stated. What makes them brittle is the fact that each man you lose reduce your firepower by 1/5 in comparison to 10 men squad, each man 1/10 of the firepower of the unit. So you lose your firepower faster with a 5 men squad. Moreover, if you lose the 5 men you squad is gone opposite to a 10 men squad wher, if you lose 5 men, you can reinforce the squad afterwards.

In fact, I consider piechota smech to be a spado unit cut in two. So for 2 units of piechota, you have the same number of men and same fire power as one unit of spades. Piechota covers more terrain but accuracy Is better for the spados. And if you count 2 units of piechota for 1 unit of spades, then, availability of spados is greater than for piechota. (on the contrary, following, the same logic, for Czech units, availability of motostrelci is greater than vysadkari).
Considering all that, I think that motostrelki are the only true rifle squad for Pact.

That is not to that piechota is useless, you cover more ground with them for the same price of a spados and if you need to charge a wood infested by enemy, they are a cheap first wave, bound to die, protecting somewhat better units incoming behind. But as I said before, and like all of you, they need an increase in their availability to be worth of a slot in my deck.

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Re: Polish Infantry Redundancy (Eugen, can you please respon

Postby empire_today » Sun 15 Apr 2012 16:42

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