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Underlying gameplay mechanics changes

Posted: Fri 13 Apr 2012 06:08
by Mazz
This is the best RTS I've played in a few years now, no doubt about it, but there are 3-4 major gameplay mechanics flaws that have been pointed out on these forums multiple times and really do need to be addressed very soon.

1. Supplies.
- Supplies in this last patch are useless, the new repair mechanics lengthens the repair time by 10x but does not change supplies consumed per second. The major problem is that any damaged unit in their range consumes all the supplies in seconds, and leaves nothing for ammo and fuel for the rest of the group. While the fix needs to be addressed ASAP, the bigger change is the allowance for supplies to be turned on an off as an ammo type, there's only 3 so it would fit in the currently UI perfectly. 1 for fuel, 1 for repairs, and 1 for ammo. You need to be able to delegate these things as sometimes ammo and fuel need to take priority over damage.

2. Routing.
The last patch has made some progress, but when a unit routs, it needs to be able to come back faster. I still see tanks and vehicles being routed by light, fast weapons, and then sit out of action for upwards of 15-30 seconds (had a Luchs routed for over 2 minutes tonight). This is an unacceptable period of time considering the scale of the rest of the gameplay. Their ability to be chain routed is also completely broken from a gameplay sense. Command units should also not be able to rout, they are just too valuable to overall gameplay.

3. Veterancy applying accuracy bonuses AFTER stabilizer.
Vet 4 should not give my Marder VTS1 a better chance to hit on the move then my M60A3. This is likely easily fixed by just moving the application of veterancy accuracy to BEFORE the stabilizer is taken into account.

I'm sure there is a couple more I'm missing, and I'm sure some other flaws will be pointed out (even if they aren't actual gameplay mechanics problems but unit problems), but these are the big 3 I can think of at the moment.

Also, while not a mechanics problem, there REALLY needs to be the ability to transfer units to teammates. Far too many games are ruined by crashes because one teammate get's stuck with all the units, and yet is playing on the opposite end of the map.

Re: Underlying gameplay mechanics changes

Posted: Fri 13 Apr 2012 06:21
by AGTMADCAT
1) Yes please!
2) The only problem I personally see is with chain-routing where you just can't get control of a unit, even to give it proper fall-back orders. It would be great to be able to designate safe fall-back positions where things can rout to, or something like that. A very tricky problem, though.
3) One could argue this in either direction, so I've staked out a neutral position on this, since I personally find VTS1 spam to be deliciously full of points for ready consumption, although I understand other people have issues with it, so maybe I just haven't faced it done "properly" yet.

-AGT

Re: Underlying gameplay mechanics changes

Posted: Fri 13 Apr 2012 06:41
by Mazz
Just using VTS1s as an example, since it's the most well known. you can do it with any unit if your willing to pay (a full Vet Leo 2 has like a 85% chance to hit at all times), it's just most effective with cheap units.

You have to consider that it doesn't matter how experienced a crew is, that doesn't make the gunner capable of predicting the little bumps and movements of the tank, throwing the gun + sights off target when your moving at 55-70 km/h. It's basically impossible for anything that doesn't have a stabilizer, hence the problem.

Re: Underlying gameplay mechanics changes

Posted: Fri 13 Apr 2012 08:45
by Mazz
bump for Euro timezone

Re: Underlying gameplay mechanics changes

Posted: Fri 13 Apr 2012 10:59
by LapinDuracell
I totally agree, these are the 3 and may be only issues to make a nearly perfect RTS.

1) Supply bug is obvious, and it would be a good thing to select what you want to prioritize btw ammo, fuel, and repair.

2) Routing is difficult to balance. I had 2 MBT-70 under uneffective arty fire being routed by a supply truck, just a few meters short of the ennemy command jeep ... Effects should be shorter, or just disable firing but not moving the units where you want.

3) After some time, most people will only buy full vets cheap units, to prevent this, veterancy should multiply base accuracy and FOTM accuracy rather than adding a fixed % per level. This will be much more coherent with the veterancy cost system : it is a % of the unit cost, so why are the effects not dependant of the unit stats too ? Today the veterancy system is economically broken.

Mazz wrote:This is the best RTS I've played in a few years now, no doubt about it, but there are 3-4 major gameplay mechanics flaws that have been pointed out on these forums multiple times and really do need to be addressed very soon.

1. Supplies.
- Supplies in this last patch are useless, the new repair mechanics lengthens the repair time by 10x but does not change supplies consumed per second. The major problem is that any damaged unit in their range consumes all the supplies in seconds, and leaves nothing for ammo and fuel for the rest of the group. While the fix needs to be addressed ASAP, the bigger change is the allowance for supplies to be turned on an off as an ammo type, there's only 3 so it would fit in the currently UI perfectly. 1 for fuel, 1 for repairs, and 1 for ammo. You need to be able to delegate these things as sometimes ammo and fuel need to take priority over damage.

2. Routing.
The last patch has made some progress, but when a unit routs, it needs to be able to come back faster. I still see tanks and vehicles being routed by light, fast weapons, and then sit out of action for upwards of 15-30 seconds (had a Luchs routed for over 2 minutes tonight). This is an unacceptable period of time considering the scale of the rest of the gameplay. Their ability to be chain routed is also completely broken from a gameplay sense. Command units should also not be able to rout, they are just too valuable to overall gameplay.

3. Veterancy applying accuracy bonuses AFTER stabilizer.
Vet 4 should not give my Marder VTS1 a better chance to hit on the move then my M60A3. This is likely easily fixed by just moving the application of veterancy accuracy to BEFORE the stabilizer is taken into account.

I'm sure there is a couple more I'm missing, and I'm sure some other flaws will be pointed out (even if they aren't actual gameplay mechanics problems but unit problems), but these are the big 3 I can think of at the moment.

Also, while not a mechanics problem, there REALLY needs to be the ability to transfer units to teammates. Far too many games are ruined by crashes because one teammate get's stuck with all the units, and yet is playing on the opposite end of the map.

Re: Underlying gameplay mechanics changes

Posted: Fri 13 Apr 2012 11:50
by Brahmanfire
+1 please Devs as was mentioned prior this is nearly a perfect RTS there are simply a few fundamental flaws that need addressed and this thread about sums it up...

also: Apache's missle range should not have been reduced, it was already an almost obsolete unit in 1v1 due to the Buk.. now we'll never see it... Not entirely sure about the Havoc but perhaps the same thing can be said given the VERY expensive cost of these units.

Thanks for a great patch and we hope for your future consideration of these core gameplay suggestions.

I can see word of mouth and a solid reputation steadily increasing the player base over time, you just gotta push this game to the pinnacle of it's potential and Success is assured. 8-)

Re: Underlying gameplay mechanics changes

Posted: Fri 13 Apr 2012 12:10
by rhylsadar
the only thing I wish more now is a correct resume for the amx Auf1 accuracy

Re: Underlying gameplay mechanics changes

Posted: Fri 13 Apr 2012 13:08
by FLX
Mazz wrote:3. Veterancy applying accuracy bonuses AFTER stabilizer.
Vet 4 should not give my Marder VTS1 a better chance to hit on the move then my M60A3. This is likely easily fixed by just moving the application of veterancy accuracy to BEFORE the stabilizer is taken into account.

Moving accuracy has no relation with static accuracy, it's a different number. (On the move : Acc10+BadStab = Acc3+BadStab) The problem comes from the fact that veterancy gives a flat accuracy bonus (+8%).

*If you make this bonus a multiplier of the accuracy instead you reduce the stabilisator effect of veterancy.

*If you want veterancy to totaly stop acting as a stab you simply remove it's bonus when shooting on the move.

(My voice on the first proposition)

Re: Underlying gameplay mechanics changes

Posted: Fri 13 Apr 2012 16:22
by AntiCommie
AGTMADCAT wrote:1) Yes please!
2) The only problem I personally see is with chain-routing where you just can't get control of a unit, even to give it proper fall-back orders. It would be great to be able to designate safe fall-back positions where things can rout to, or something like that. A very tricky problem, though.
-AGT


This is a pretty good idea. Maybe you could designate a CO to retreat to, or by default units retreat to the nearest CO. I could see where that could be bad sometimes, but overall I think it would be better then the random direction it seems to be now. I had a challenger killed by a BMP1 last night because it wouldnt stop routing and when it would rout it basically drove around in circles. I understand the crew is panicking, but I'd still expect better better then that for gameplay reasons alone.

Re: Underlying gameplay mechanics changes

Posted: Fri 13 Apr 2012 16:25
by AntiCommie
FLX wrote:
Mazz wrote:3. Veterancy applying accuracy bonuses AFTER stabilizer.
Vet 4 should not give my Marder VTS1 a better chance to hit on the move then my M60A3. This is likely easily fixed by just moving the application of veterancy accuracy to BEFORE the stabilizer is taken into account.


Moving accuracy has no relation with static accuracy, it's a different number. (On the move : Acc10+BadStab = Acc3+BadStab) The problem comes from the fact that veterancy gives a flat accuracy bonus (+8%).

*If you make this bonus a multiplier of the accuracy instead you reduce the stabilisator effect of veterancy.

*If you want veterancy to totaly stop acting as a stab you simply remove it's bonus when shooting on the move.

(My voice on the first proposition)


I dont think I understand this... So what you are saying is moving makes all units shoot the same? As in, M1A1 and T55s all have the same accuracy when moving? The Excellent stabilizor only makes the M1A1 more accurate when not moving?