Concerned about range on Anti aircraft vehicles

Nerdfish
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Concerned about range on Anti aircraft vehicles

Postby Nerdfish » Tue 7 Feb 2012 17:37

I am very concerned that some air defense units have much shorter range then their real-life counterparts.

Both 9M311 and Roland have 10 KM of range
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9M311#Missiles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_(missile)

But their in game range is only 2.8KM
http://www.wargame-ee.com/index.php?rub ... &unit=1195
http://www.wargame-ee.com/index.php?rub ... &unit=1019

The only reason AA exist is to counter air units. There are two ways to counter fast units - by being faster themselves, or having a longer range. Since these AA guns are on the ground, there is no way they can be faster.
In this game they also appear to have the same range as gunships:

http://www.wargame-ee.com/index.php?rub ... &unit=1493
http://www.wargame-ee.com/index.php?rub ... &unit=1468

This leave the AA player with two options, first is to concentrate AA. the gunships could just kill everything else in this situation. If the player with AA does not concentrate AA, then the player with gunship could simply concentrate gunships and overwhelm air defense at any location ! Either situation makes AA useless against air, which supposedly their only function !

If you are in the beta, I'd love to hear if gunships can be defeated by air defense in practice.

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FFR.Tarask
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Re: Concerned about range on Anti aircraft vehicles

Postby FFR.Tarask » Tue 7 Feb 2012 17:41

They was in the Beta, and not only by AA.
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obssesednuker
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Re: Concerned about range on Anti aircraft vehicles

Postby obssesednuker » Tue 7 Feb 2012 17:52

This leave the AA player with two options


There is no 'AA' player. All players ultimately do have access to all units of their chosen faction, with the limit being that you can only choose a number of those unit types as recruitable for each battle. And according to the beta players, Air Defense chopped up helicopter very effectively...

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Re: Concerned about range on Anti aircraft vehicles

Postby Tigga » Tue 7 Feb 2012 18:02

You've picked the two most expensive gunships there. In the beta an Apache cost 200 points, an a Havoc 190. The Roland was 45 IIRC. That said, in the beta both the Apache and the Havoc had ~200m more range, so could actually outrange the SAM. I imagine the range nerf has also come with a significant price nerf as they were pretty much usless in the beta. I wouldn't be suprised to see the price of these things cut to nearer the ~100-120 range in release as even AH-1Es were pretty dubious investments at 80 points (http://www.wargame-ee.com/index.php?rub ... &unit=1467).

One of the main ways this is balanced in-game is the the much greater ATGM lock-on time relative to SAM lock-on time. Compounded by the fact that to lock on your ATGM you need to be hovering and need to remain in place until it hits the target it's pretty easy to protect vulvernable targets from helicopter sniping.

I'm already a bit worried that the long range AA (Buk/Chapparral) will be far too effective, and they're only ~4km. Any more and helicopters would be completely pointless.

And also, as obssesednuker says, the way the decks are organised means that every deck will be able to quite easily put in plenty of proper AA. The decks seem to be more for flavour rather than providing vastly different forces.

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solvens
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Re: Concerned about range on Anti aircraft vehicles

Postby solvens » Tue 7 Feb 2012 19:34

IRL, the ATGM had greater ranges too, the AT-6 having a range of 6000m. This game uses only the effective range of the missiles, I suppose chances to hit a hedge hopping heli 4 kms away are low.
For what I remember, the winner in an AT heli/AA match was usually the first to spot the other one, and the AA vehicles with radar often killed their opponent before they could act, especially of they were hidden behind other units. An heli on the move doesn't see many things, and sometimes I bumped into Shilkas with my Gazelles HOT.
During the beta, the helis were very fragile, and even a Hind would get killed if it took small weapons fire, for example if it flied over an infantry platoon (or if some french tanks engaged it with their autocannons and heavy mgs, am I right Selkares ? :evil: )
In numbers, I only lost one of my two Tungunskas in a fight versus four Cobras.
You can also counter the range problem by hiding behind towns and hills, which was very effective in the beta.

And keep in mind that AA guns can be used as meatgrinders too.

Otherwise, I completely agree with Tigga.
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chema1994
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Re: Concerned about range on Anti aircraft vehicles

Postby chema1994 » Tue 7 Feb 2012 22:03

Nerdfish wrote:I am very concerned that some air defense units have much shorter range then their real-life counterparts.

Both 9M311 and Roland have 10 KM of range
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9M311#Missiles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_(missile)

But their in game range is only 2.8KM
http://www.wargame-ee.com/index.php?rub ... &unit=1195
http://www.wargame-ee.com/index.php?rub ... &unit=1019

The only reason AA exist is to counter air units. There are two ways to counter fast units - by being faster themselves, or having a longer range. Since these AA guns are on the ground, there is no way they can be faster.
In this game they also appear to have the same range as gunships:

http://www.wargame-ee.com/index.php?rub ... &unit=1493
http://www.wargame-ee.com/index.php?rub ... &unit=1468

This leave the AA player with two options, first is to concentrate AA. the gunships could just kill everything else in this situation. If the player with AA does not concentrate AA, then the player with gunship could simply concentrate gunships and overwhelm air defense at any location ! Either situation makes AA useless against air, which supposedly their only function !

If you are in the beta, I'd love to hear if gunships can be defeated by air defense in practice.

It's effective range. Against helicopters SAMs have a smaller range due to ground clutter

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Re: Concerned about range on Anti aircraft vehicles

Postby Tigga » Tue 7 Feb 2012 22:08

Just struck me that we could see some of this stuff. On the deck builder bit of the latest video we can see that the Apache appears to cost 175. For me this is still far too much as it's still more expensive than the heaviest tank, though they may have changed it's resistance or something as well.

Looks like they made the AI-1E cheaper, which is a good thing as it was overpriced compared to the AH-1S before. Hopefully they've also made a few changes to the rockets vs ATGM balance on helis as well.

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Re: Concerned about range on Anti aircraft vehicles

Postby Tac Error » Tue 7 Feb 2012 22:26

This game uses only the effective range of the missiles


Yeah, and I believe that the ranges also take into account the relief of European terrain (e.g. the relief of the North German Plain I've been told consisted of long rising slopes), compared to flat desert or flat weapons testing areas.
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Re: Concerned about range on Anti aircraft vehicles

Postby [EUG]MadMat » Wed 8 Feb 2012 17:25

Tigga wrote:On the deck builder bit of the latest video we can see that the Apache appears to cost 175. For me this is still far too much as it's still more expensive than the heaviest tank, though they may have changed it's resistance or something as well.

Yes, the price of the Apache has been reduced to 175. And that of the Havoc to 165.
We've taken the beta feedbacks about them into account very seriously. So much that it has even driven us into a kind of trench war between pros & cons of the Apache/Havoc.

We've made plenty of test games involving the Apache & Havoc, and its worth at its previous and actual price. We came up with the conclusion that less would make it too powerful.
Buy an Apache/Havoc and rush it in the general direction of the enemy in "Attack" mode, with the hope that its next-generation armament will overpower its foes ... and you'll lose it quickly. And then you'll consider it overpriced ...
But in the hand of a skilled opponent, whom keeps it in reserve, at the edge of your field of vision, using its wide range of fire to punctually breach your defense or smash a column advancing without AA, it'll be devastating ... . Just keep it looming over a sector, and the enemy will buy twice the Apache/Havoc's price in long range air defence or anti-aircraft helicopters. Unfortunately for me, I was on the bad side of the test games and my opponent was most skilled with those little flying Image ...
I can assure you, from (painful) personal experience, that they are way from being overpriced: they are masterpieces needing extra skills to use them effectively, but once "broken in" they are lords of the battlefields ...

Besides, some helos are now more resilient to light weapons (infantry weapons or AA machine-gun), namely AH-64 Apache, Mi-28 Havoc & Mi-24 Hind, and (only partially) the Mi-17 & UH-60 Blackhawk.

EUGEN TEAM

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Re: Concerned about range on Anti aircraft vehicles

Postby Tigga » Wed 8 Feb 2012 18:40

I'll trust you on that Mat, or at least until I have a chance to try it myself! I am aware that with only a week's worth of playtime initial impresions of powerful units can be skewed quite a bit by poor play with them. I remember discussing heavy tanks with some people who were arguing that they were useless, but having concentrated on them for a few games I could see that they were far from it! They just needed to be used in the right situations and not overexposed to fire, especially on their side and rear armour. I imagine top-tier helicopters are the same.

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