Fine-tuning NK/China

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youzhe
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby youzhe » Tue 23 Mar 2021 15:37

NEW DLC! :D
Too many years later,i come back to this forum.
Unfortunately, my English still hasn't improved :|
I don't know if I can see the WG4,so I hope Chinese units can be improved.
In China, we usually call it red ‘worm’ . :(

So,while we pay attention to South Africa, don't forget look after the old factions. :lol:

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Admiral Piett
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Admiral Piett » Sun 28 Mar 2021 20:38

I wouldn't get too excited. :P
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Fri 17 Sep 2021 20:07

Ok, wtf is happening?!

I was watching some PLA documentary and thought about wargame, was just going to check the old thread for nostalgia's sake and then... new DLC? after what? 5 years of negligence? crazy!

[EUG]MadMat wrote:ping


I read that a balance patch is going to drop, you guys making good on that promise: "buffs are coming to RD so powerful SovKor had to go"?
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> Sources for tuning Red Dragons --- Sources for tuning Blue Dragons <
亲们!大国梦哦!
小钱钱,真心甜,鼓钱包,放腰间,大国梦,早日圆 。啷个哩个啷♪

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sun 19 Sep 2021 15:19

Just a headsup. Since 2019 a crackdow of military sources is happening. The largest and more reliable forums are basically gone or restricted. Please use wayback machine for the links and if you want pictures i can provide those if asked to.

I won't go back the whole thread and change links for obvious reasons, please understand.
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> Sources for tuning Red Dragons --- Sources for tuning Blue Dragons <
亲们!大国梦哦!
小钱钱,真心甜,鼓钱包,放腰间,大国梦,早日圆 。啷个哩个啷♪

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Fri 8 Oct 2021 16:32

It is 2021 and time for round 6 of balance suggestions for RD coalition! After 5 years of absence Eugen has returned to the wargame franchise and released a balance patch, so let‘s update that old list.

Preface:
____________________________
As a reminder for the forgetful among us: Eugen was aware of RD's underwhelming performance and even an entire coalition was disbanded for the supposedly coming buffs to RD. The caveat however being that no buffs of such magnitude was ever introduced! Outplayed everyone right there, Eugen!

The recent patch with the arrival of South Africa DLC didn‘t change the situation. The only noteworthy balance change was the price cut to Luzhandui 75, nor play style neither deck viability/potential has been changed. The same capability holes are still there and aside from the marginally better performance at infantry grind, the coalition is still rock bottom of the pile.

Technically the suggestions from Round 5 still applies, but I'll simplify it by listing IMO minimum „back into relevance“ easy band-aid changes, followed by more extensive re-roles and finished with some new units suggestion for whatever may or may not come.

Like always all suggestions are done with authenticity in mind, given what scarce info available to the public of course. For PLA I have used almost exclusively Chinese language sources. However some things about a secretive military like China/NK need to be understood:

Disclaimer: Every PLA watcher worth their salt should know that information about the military is highly guarded, all things we read openly in the web are just estimations or in best cases leaks. Some of those data are more logical and well reasoned and some are just daydreams. It is near impossible to verify those info depending on the equipment (for instance tank armor). There is basically 3 ways how we can interpret those data. 1) take it as it is 2) take it as exaggeration 3) take it as understatement. I think the same also applies to NK. For game balance we should apply those 3 ways with reason.

Additionally since 2019 a purge of reliable Chinese sources has been ongoing. Many links you find in this thread will be dead. However you may still access some of them by using wayback machine, but unfortunately the most important sources are beyond even that and truly gone.


Before we start, I'd like to point to a list of links with good information or nice ideas and so on:

Spoiler : "Nice to read" links :


1. Easy Changes
_____________________________
I will let the old summary by a competitive player stay as a comparison to the sentiments nowadays, it is a bit old though.

- Zhanshi '85 RPG change into PF-89 or Type-69-III, rename to Zhanshi '90
- Lu Zhandui '75/90 get all transport options and access to all deck specializations, renamed to Te Zhandui


Reasoning
Spoiler : :
Zhanshi are literally the worst line infantry in game, with the proposed changes you will at least get good affordable AT. Even with the changes they are still inferior to Fusilier and Bokkop in terms of AT for 15 pts.

For Luzhandui I dug a bit around about PLA special forces and found the operation profile
http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/tezhong ... 847_2.html

translation pulled from sinodefence forum:

Unlike the U.S. SOF, the PLA focuses the roles of its SOF very much on direct action (DA), special reconnaissance (SR), and counter-terrorism (CT). PLA SOF units are not trained for unconventional warfare (UW) and civil affairs (CA) like their American counterparts. This is because the PLA only intends to use the SOF for a high-intensity, lightening-fast regional conflict that is over in short amount of time. They are not going to be involved in long-duration, low-intensity operations in foreign countries, like what the U.S. SOF did in Southeast Asia in the 1960s/70s.

Direct Action (DA) - The most important mission for PLA SOF, involving short-duration strikes and other small-scale offensive actions by SOF to seize, destroy, capture, recover or inflict damage on designated personnel or material. For example, prior to the outbreak of major hostilities between the PRC and Taiwan, PLA SOF will infiltrate the Taiwan island using powered parachutes, helicopters, or other methods, and launch a pre-empty strike against key enemy personnel and command & control elements, to paralyse the enemy C3I network and leave the enemy troops leaderless. This strategy is sometimes being referred to as “Decapitation Operation”.

Other DA operations may include capturing enemy airfields and seaports for the upcoming airborne and amphibious landing troops; sabotaging enemy equipments and systems; attacking vital civilian infrastructure; ambushing enemy forces; spreading rumours to cause enemy confusion and misjudgement, etc.

Special Reconnaissance (SR) - SR involves reconnaissance and surveillance actions to obtain or verify vital intelligence and information, by using visual and other hi-tech collection methods. This is very much like what SOF units of the Coalitions Forces did during the two Gulf Wars. Small teams consisting 2~4 people will be dispatched to behind enemy lines to collect intelligence concerning the capabilities, intensions, and activities or enemy forces. It may also involve locating and designating targets for precision strikes.

Counter-Terrorism (CT) - PLA SOF units are receiving training in offensive counter-terrorism operations to prevent, deter and respond to terrorism. As a result of the growing separatist activities in China’s remote regions such as Xijiang, PLA SOF have became increasingly involved in the counter-terrorism role. In October 2002, a PLA SOF unit took part in the joint China-Tajikistan counter-terrorism exercise. A recent report by the Chinese state media also confirmed that counter-terrorism had been added to the basic Special Forces training subjects under the renewed PLA doctrines.

Other Roles - In some occasions, PLA SOF are also acting as “Blue Army” (opposing force) in exercise to test the ability of regular army unit against special forces.


Each of the 7 military districts have their own „special forces“ unit, and like the profile says: direct action and recon are primary concern. I would say the recon is more in line with traditional infiltration and demolition task and the direct action guys are more like shock troops.

Given many changes in the new patch was dealing with Deck access and transport options (K1 in marine and SAS getting ground transports). This is a legit easy way to provide not only flavor but also potentially buffing certain specializations into greatness.


- All 125mm armed PLA tanks to 8 rpm.

Reasoning
Spoiler : :
Should be self-explanatory. All openly available Chinese sources cite the rpm of 125mm ZTZ as 8). It will help 85III to be able to keep up with damage output of similar priced class peers and make 85IIA a less bad alternative to Chonma 5.

http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/Class38 ... 01304.html

该系统有故障自检功能,并能自动选择弹种,完成输弹、装弹、发射等一系列动作,战斗射速可达8发/分。

The system has self-diagnosis function, capable of automatically selecting ammo type, loading and firing procedure, combat RPM reaches 8.


- Increase ACC of R-73M1 and R-27R1 by 5%

Reasoning
Spoiler : :
Primarily a gameplay change, because for some reason China is the only Nation to get downgraded missiles, literally all RedFor nations are getting top-shelf munitions from USSR.

I‘ll also voice my doubt that those downgraded missiles should be 10% less accurate in the first place.

If nothing is done to plug the AMRAAM hole, then at least the top-tier ASF of the coalition can become a bit better at dealing with air threats.[/quote]


1. Re-Roles
_____________________________

- Gonbobyong re-role into shock recon squad (With all current transports and deck access), renamed to Chŏngguktae
- Yuckjeondae '75/'90 re-role into light shock infantry, 5 pts price cut for both (all current transports and deck access), renamed to Kyŏngbobyŏng
- Jeogockdae '75/90 re-role into elite marines, 5 pts price increase for both (all current transport and similar deck access like Commando-Marine/Kustjägare/Korps Marniers), spelling corrected to Chŏgyŏktae


Reasoning
Spoiler : :
This is based on a Report about NK military focus and operation profile. Please use wayback machine, it is archived.

Excerpt from the document about the special purpose forces
North Korean SOF fall into many different categories: ranger/commando, light infantry, airborne, sniper/strategic assassination, SEAL, reconnaissance, amphibious assault/naval infantry/marine, agent infiltration and intelligence operative. North Korean SOF are associated with conventional warfare, unrestricted warfare, unconventional warfare, guerrilla warfare, partisan warfare, asymmetric warfare, and insurgency. Page 40

During the early 1990s, the VIII Special Corps was renamed the Light Infantry Training and Guidance Bureau. The special purpose forces continued to expand during this period from 85,000 troops organized into 22 brigades in 1990 to approximately 100,000 troops organized into 25 brigades in 1996. Page 44


Kim Il Sung stated that there would be a unique strategic approach based upon “light infantry units,” which had the capability of conducting “all forms of combat.” This was a pivotal point in the development of the KPA’s special warfare forces. Prior to this, guerrilla warfare was the primary mission which received the bulk of support and funding. Now these units would
be responsible for a broader, more balanced range of unconventional and special warfare operations.
Prolonged political subversion and intelligence collection became the primary mission. Page 43


Judging from these, the role of NK special purpose forces are rather fluid, ingame this means the marines could easily be considered the amphibious assault troops of the elite division, Gonbobyong can be considered light recon for forward intelligence gathering and infiltrating etc

I believe there is much to gain by reroling Gonbobyong into a recon, which will provide NK with a fighting shock and freeing up light infantry slot for re-role. Which the yuckjeondae with their current better loadout and transports will do admirably.

Original idea post: http://forums.eugensystems.com/viewtopi ... 8#p1002048

For an more extensive explanation of the NK small arms situation visit this post. For some more details on NK MG preferences and the type-73, visit this post.


- Up-value ZTZ-85-III (23 AP DU round; 20 FAV, 8SAV, 4TAV, 70 km/h speed, 155 pts)
- Up-value ZTZ-85-IIA (65% ACC, 50% stab; 21 AP DU round; 17 FAV, 3 TAV, 3 RAV; 120 pts), rename to ZTZ-85-IIM
- Up-value ZTZ-85-II (60% ACC, 50% stab; 14 FAV; 75 pts), rename to ZTZ-85-IIA


Reasoning
Spoiler : :
RD high end tanks are currently solely kept afloat by the T-90. The 85-III can be very reasonably and easily up-armored and given it's intro date also access to Chinese DU rounds. A similar reasoning can also be made about the other 2 lower tier 85, which is currently under-represented in front armor.

The ZTZ-85-IIA is in reality the ZTZ-85-IIAP sold to Pakistan, it's domestic usage name would be ZTZ-85-IIM. Generally the armor for the M version which is the same as for early ZTZ-96, which is estimated to be around 530mm in 1992.

The same should arguably also be done to the 85-II, which really should be called ZTZ-85-IIA, since it doesn't have the long barrel gun.

These changes will generally distribute units more evenly among price brackets and especially help the scarce high-end segment, which provides viable options if the meta shifts again.

For more info check this extensive post about tank development history in the PLA.

For more info check this extensive post about ZTZ-85 line of tanks.

Info and better pictures on ZTZ-85-III, including data on chinese ERA

Chinese tank ammo/armor rough data


- Su-27SK loadout change to: 4xR-77; 2xR-73; 160 pts; rename to Su-27SMK (1995 prototype)

Reasoning
Spoiler : :
For more info check this extensive post about R-77 in the PLAAF.

in short, China co-financed the development of R-77 and was IRL the first operator of R-77 outside of Russia. The irony is how RD is the single coalition without AMRAAM.


3. New Units
_____________________

Let‘s be honest RD lacks a lot of their ITF kits and has a strange heavy redundancy especially in CAT C. For all who are interested, you can find out how eugen made the RD roster here. Pure gold dust for days.

Anyway, to close the capability holes, reduce redundancies and add new flavor/playstyle new units are required. Let‘s look at some of them.

- JN252, 7 tons cargo class supply
- Type-64, heavily armored troop transport
- Type-89, standard 90s APC, basically ZSD-90 without turret
- VTT-323 Sinhung, APC with type-63 MRLS, should be able to carry troops.
- HJ-8A Squad, 4 men squad carrying 3 part disassembled tripod construct. Every part weight less than 20kg. For reference the Chu-MAT got into the game despite being 70kg for Tripod+Laser designator.
- PF-98 FIST, high AP FIST.
- QLZ-87, automatic grenade rifle in light or heavy configuration.
- Type-89, ultra light HMG, coming in 26kg for gun+tripod.
- HQ-2B, single shot super heavy SAM, 200kg+ warhead. Should be oneshotting any plane ingame.
- Juche 370mm, should work similar like Buratino, but triple shot high HE shells. Or make it a normal direct fire FSV.
- W90, 10 sec aimtime 203mm howitzer. co-developed between UK, Spain and China.
- PGZ-89, 10 sec aimtime autoloaded GRAD with 80 rockets
- Type-87, precursor to the PTL-02, the pic is actually type-97. Low number adoption in 1988 as recon unit for arty battalion.
- Z-9A recon, asymmetric loadout with 23mm gun and 90mm rockets.
- HD-5, early SEAD

For the Lulz:

- WZ-123, proto stage 1993-1995 with QW-2 manpad as emergency airdefense.
- Su-27SK bomber, can carry 30x250kg bombs or 30x250kg cluster. Since the airforce was doctrinal required to do CAS with any airframe.

There are even more, but these should suffice for now.

5. Inconsistencies
_____________________________
- SA Rover with type-63 MLRS is a chinese system with 8500 max range, but ingame it outranges the type-63 130mm MLRS on bothPLZ-70 and PHL-63 with 17km max range. All that while being up to 15 pts cheaper
- Su-25K gets 2 rear armor like Su-25T due to post 1986 intro date with added armor
- J-7C is a copy of MiG-21MF, thus should have the same 20% ecm and 350 turn radius. However this will create some issues with what eugen perceived as direct successor: The J-7H. For more details on thi issue visit this post
- PL-11 should get 60% accuracy like the ground based HQ-61
- The ZTQ-62G and ZTS-63II share the turret and thus should have the same armor at being 180mm frontal protection
- NK MiG21 ATGM plane availability doesn't make sense regarding the pricing and capability of the aircraft, should coming at 2 elite planes minimum
- Following tanks are using the same FCS (ISFCS-212) as ZTZ-88B, but gets less accuracy: ZTQ-62G, ZTS-63-II and both lower end ZTZ-85 tanks
- All earlier ZTQ-62 and ZTS-63/Type-63 should have the same frontal turret protection of 50mm RHA.
- All ZTQ-62 should have small size, they are of smaller than PT-76/ZTS-63/Type-63
- NK manpad and FIST get access to VTT-323 serie of IFV like many other nations
- PL-8 and the Python 3 should be the same one way or other
- ZSD-90 should be 20 pts after the massive armor buff
- F-7b availability is 5/4/0/3/0 not 6/5/4/0/3 like China's MiG.
- PGZ-63 lacks anti-aircraft range like other similar vehicles.
- BJ-212 PWL-78 has the wrong weapon, the model is type-75 105mm RR
- All J-7 variants, except the J-7C, have the wrong gun. It should be 2xtype-30-I 30mm cannon.
- Several naming issues with NK infantry units, for a detailed list check this
- QBZ-56-I rifle is an AKS clone with folding stock, thus should be changed as such

Afterwords
__________________________

What can be said about RD has been said over the years. Buffs were alluded by MadMat and promised by FLX back in 2016, but nothing came out of it. All the while people lamenting about the small selection of RedFor nations and the coalition with the highest potential is languishing as a victim of bad design and double standard. It needs a comprehensive review to provide RedFor with fresh wind and to fulfil what was once promised.

Nevertheless I thank all people who participated in this thread and contributed to this list. Also Eugen for making he game. I have tried to keep the changes as simple and few as possible without sacrifice too much competitiveness gain. Maybe something will finally come out of this after all the years.

Earlier rounds of suggestions:

Round 3

Round 4

Round 5
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> Sources for tuning Red Dragons --- Sources for tuning Blue Dragons <
亲们!大国梦哦!
小钱钱,真心甜,鼓钱包,放腰间,大国梦,早日圆 。啷个哩个啷♪

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keldon
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Fri 8 Oct 2021 16:34

Thread updated with round 6 suggestions.
Image
> Sources for tuning Red Dragons --- Sources for tuning Blue Dragons <
亲们!大国梦哦!
小钱钱,真心甜,鼓钱包,放腰间,大国梦,早日圆 。啷个哩个啷♪

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby urogard » Sat 9 Oct 2021 20:04

upvoting

make dragons great again

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Admiral Piett » Sun 10 Oct 2021 03:41

keldon wrote:Thread updated with round 6 suggestions.


Nice to see you're still kicking about, keldon.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sun 10 Oct 2021 16:12

urogard wrote:upvoting

make dragons great again


Admiral Piett wrote:Nice to see you're still kicking about, keldon.


Cheers guys. Hope you are also doing well!

I have given up on wargame, but since there was a patch I thought: "why not". And honestly i'm disappointed, yet again.

Compare to this. A single player game from 2016 based on ancient titan quest engine, officially ended the support last year, and now we are getting a balance patch larger than anything before. Just compare the size of that changelog to wargame...
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> Sources for tuning Red Dragons --- Sources for tuning Blue Dragons <
亲们!大国梦哦!
小钱钱,真心甜,鼓钱包,放腰间,大国梦,早日圆 。啷个哩个啷♪

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sat 16 Oct 2021 20:03

Added the folowing to the inconsistency segment:

- ZTS-63-I and Su-76M both have medium optics, which is unwarranted due to introdate.
- RD low-end tank availability are inconsistent, outlier being: ZTZ-59-I (20 pts tank avail.), ZTZ-59-IIA (40 pts tank avail.), Type 59-IB (50 pts tank avail.), ZTZ-59-II (20 pts tank avail)
- ZZC-56 is a BTR-40A and should have the same stats like one
- ZDF-89 should have the same armor and speed like ZSD-90 (the ingame model is wrong, for both of them)
- Veterancy option for Su-100 is unlike other legacy AT gun (ASU-85, Su-122). It should be moving up 1 step
- PHL-81 and Rakh 76 are identical by performance, as such they should cost the same
Image
> Sources for tuning Red Dragons --- Sources for tuning Blue Dragons <
亲们!大国梦哦!
小钱钱,真心甜,鼓钱包,放腰间,大国梦,早日圆 。啷个哩个啷♪

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