Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

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Drang
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Re: Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

Postby Drang » Tue 11 Mar 2014 22:01

Mention Buccaneer and you will get British people. Seriously, we have a text alert set up for every time someone mentions that word, just in case.

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Re: Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

Postby k0m1ssar » Tue 11 Mar 2014 22:18

Mitchverr wrote:Bucanners were in use till 1994, it is a "full time unit" through the whole of the era :lol: including use in the gulf war, AMX 10 PAC and the others also have same arguments.

And not really flavor, they all add unique ability to their nations if put in actually that current systems dont really replace to well(unsure on the soviet 1 but the other 2 do).

Artillery can be balanced, it wouldnt be that hard to do for eugen, im sure they would be able to make it "work well" for price cost etc in comparason to other national systems, also just because its 155 doesnt make it the same capability really (eg 155 guns used in some nato nations are not as good as a AS90).


Please tell me what Buccaneer would bring to Britain, beside what Jaguar and Harrier have already been doing. As for AMX-10 PAC, AMX-10 RC is a faster platform that practically does the same thing but better (do I need to reiterate how AMX-13 Recon is OP in fire support role?). I understand how flavor is to players, some of you might even have the chance of work with those units. But from a gameplay point of view, I don't know how important those additions would really be.
Tyulpan is certainly an interesting concept, but Soviets already got fire support covered pretty good with load of mortars, Buratino and well as 2450m range HE guns with pinpoint accuracy. They will not especially benefit or suffer with or without it.

As for artillery balancing I am somehow skeptical: just how often do you see 2S3 Akatsiya and 2S1 Gvozdika in ALB? With limited supply capability, if you want a high value target dead you want precision. I just don't see why Red Dragons can't get what every other coalition is getting, a precise long range fire support that can also be used for smoke cover.

You are not well informed on the PLZ-45: it is said to be roughly equivalent to AS-90 when it comes to capability. It handily outperformed M109A6 in the competition for that Kuwait export deal. Its greatest limitation was the ROF, as it only had a semi-auto loader.
Last edited by OpusTheFowl on Wed 12 Mar 2014 15:57, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: language

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Re: Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

Postby [EUG]MadMat » Tue 11 Mar 2014 22:26

Drang wrote:Mention Buccaneer and you will get British people. Seriously, we have a text alert set up for every time someone mentions that word, just in case.

Why do you think I spelled it wrong? ;)
I hoped not to ring such alert ... :roll:

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Re: Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

Postby Mitchverr » Tue 11 Mar 2014 22:34

k0m1ssar wrote:Please tell me what Buccaneer would bring to Britain, beside what Jaguar and Harrier have already been doing. As for AMX-10 PAC, AMX-10 RC is a faster platform that practically does the same thing but better (do I need to reiterate how AMX-13 Recon is OP in fire support role?). I understand how flavor is to players, some of you might even have the chance of work with those units. But from a gameplay point of view, I don't know how important those additions would really be.
Tyulpan is certainly an interesting concept, but Soviets already got fire support covered pretty good with load of mortars, Buratino and well as 2450m range HE guns with pinpoint accuracy. They will not especially benefit or suffer with or without it.

As for artillery balancing I am somehow skeptical: just how often do you see 2S3 Akatsiya and 2S1 Gvozdika in ALB? With limited supply capability, if you want a high value target dead you want precision. I just don't see why Red Dragons can't get what every other coalition is getting, a precise long range fire support that can also be used for smoke cover.

You are not well informed on the PLZ-45: it is said to be roughly equivalent to AS-90 when it comes to capability. It handily outperformed M109A6 in the competition for that Kuwait export deal. Its greatest limitation was the ROF, as it only had a semi-auto loader.


I never said the PLZ 45 is bad(least didnt mean this to be my wording), i just said if it was in, it might not perform on the same level is my meaning, as the different nations have different feels put in by eugen (trust me, i know how sucky that can be, i loved the avre till they messed with it :lol: ) just for the start bit, i would personally love it in, i just think it would help to use arguments that aint so "bad" if you get what i mean, not offence just, bad in this way of not helping the overall goal being obtained in my view (this argument and 1s like "CR2 in game when it wasnt made till 1998" kinda things are what i hope to see less of in this area myself, i would love to see china get the artillery, but i can live without it when i played china, i did the same to fellow brits when they asked for things too).

As for the skeptical view on balancing, thats up to you really, ALB is horrid to use as an example, artillery works so differently between that and RD in my view, and ofcourse balancing has yet to really truely take a full swing at it in my view which obviously will happen, i have faith eugen will look into that when they can as they have for many other units that needed it in the past for EE and ALB.

Bucc etc i would rather not OT this discussion myself, but LGB, something fast that drops those, it was a SEAD and anti ship platform also, if it took those 2 roles the UK would be able to SEAD in naval or any other deck type not just naval, it would free up the FA2 to be a medium range fighter that would benifit the UK heavily (The tornado simply wasnt good at dogfighting, the harrier "hopefully" would be at this) and also open up the GR1B for retasking due to the lack of a jaguar GR1B in order to operate better there. It also had the ability as said, for bombing campaigns in precision munitions, something the UK still lacks in the form of paveway II. As the UK currently has no fast bomber for this role which again, could be the bucc or the tornado retasked for ground attack missions.

As for France...

"(do I need to reiterate how AMX-13 Recon is OP in fire support role?)" no it isnt, it really isnt, its unique, it isnt OP, its very easy to take out and has a very limited scope of power.

AMX-10 PAC would be a tracked fire support vehicle, it is also amphibious aswell, it can also fire HEAT rounds to make it different if eugen like but up to them and would be available to differing decks i believe also.

Tyulpan i agree is a bit of an odd 1, however it still "kinda" fits but heh.

Sorry for OT chaps, was answering questions :)

[EUG]MadMat wrote:
Drang wrote:Mention Buccaneer and you will get British people. Seriously, we have a text alert set up for every time someone mentions that word, just in case.

Why do you think I spelled it wrong? ;)
I hoped not to ring such alert ... :roll:


To be fair, i woulda been here if you used any countries units that would add alot and are not ingame :lol:
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Re: Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

Postby Carnage1138 » Tue 11 Mar 2014 23:06

In regards to the PLZ-45, in conversation H-J has said that one of the things he wished they had in the Chinese support section was the PLZ-45 as it was in time frame. I personally haven't made up my mind on the matter although if Eugen did decide to do it they could always repaint a M109 model for minimum fuss.

As for the ZTZ-90+ series......I've said it before but I guess I'll say it again. It'd be nice to have in a DLC but I'm content with my ZTZ-85-IIA/Ms for now which are vastly superior to what France had in ALB which is why I still don't quite get the Chinese/ALB French comparison. As for the T-90S that North Korea got......I will say I'm with some of the others in not believing for one minute that the Soviets would ever be willing to sell that kind of tech to the DPRK, assuming that the North Koreans could even come up with the money to buy the thing (since the only place they could possibly find the amount of scratch needed for even one of the tanks is the Great Leader's personal spending account and who in their right mind would even dare think of touching that). That said what's done is done and I'm not going to suggest that Eugen remove it. I don't agree with the complaints that the T-72S is out of place because that actually seems like exactly the sort of thing the USSR would sell to the DPRK (not to mention actually being affordable). Enough of that though. This isn't the DPRK's thread.

After playing the first round of closed beta the main things I still want for the Chinese are a man-portable ATGM like HJ-8 (I know what's already been said on the subject but it's basically a Chinese MILAN so just switch out the character models with Chinese soldiers and BOOM! instant HJ-8). I would also like to see something replace that current godawful recon helicopter with maybe a Z-11WA (don't know when this specific recon model helicopter was introduced but since the Z-11 first flew in 1994 it would make for a nice recon helicopter option). Just having the Z-11 in-game at all would be nice as it was China's first completely indigenous helicopter design completed and since it first flew in 1994 it could have been rushed into production. For ease of design it is remarkably similar to the Squirrel scout helicopter so you could just take the model and put PLA camo and markings on it and voila! You've got a Z-11. By the way could somebody help me hunt down when the Z-11WA was first introduced I'm having a difficult time finding that out. I'd also like it if we could get a transport helo version of the Z-9 helicopter.

All in all I generally liked the PLA in the Beta (we just NEED MOAR TY-90 Z-9s!). These are just my initial views/comments about them. I'll be sure to get in more detail later.
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Re: Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

Postby ninjaminnow12 » Tue 11 Mar 2014 23:19

Carnage1138 wrote:In regards to the PLZ-45, in conversation H-J has said that one of the things he wished they had in the Chinese support section was the PLZ-45 as it was in time frame. I personally haven't made up my mind on the matter although if Eugen did decide to do it they could always repaint a M109 model for minimum fuss.

As for the ZTZ-90+ series......I've said it before but I guess I'll say it again. It'd be nice to have in a DLC but I'm content with my ZTZ-85-IIA/Ms for now which are vastly superior to what France had in ALB which is why I still don't quite get the Chinese/ALB French comparison. As for the T-90S that North Korea got......I will say I'm with some of the others in not believing for one minute that the Soviets would ever be willing to sell that kind of tech to the DPRK, assuming that the North Koreans could even come up with the money to buy the thing (since the only place they could possibly find the amount of scratch needed for even one of the tanks is the Great Leader's personal spending account and who in their right mind would even dare think of touching that). That said what's done is done and I'm not going to suggest that Eugen remove it. I don't agree with the complaints that the T-72S is out of place because that actually seems like exactly the sort of thing the USSR would sell to the DPRK (not to mention actually being affordable). Enough of that though. This isn't the DPRK's thread.

After playing the first round of closed beta the main things I still want for the Chinese are a man-portable ATGM like HJ-8 (I know what's already been said on the subject but it's basically a Chinese MILAN so just switch out the character models with Chinese soldiers and BOOM! instant HJ-8). I would also like to see something replace that current godawful recon helicopter with maybe a Z-11WA (don't know when this specific recon model helicopter was introduced but since the Z-11 first flew in 1994 it would make for a nice recon helicopter option). Just having the Z-11 in-game at all would be nice as it was China's first completely indigenous helicopter design completed and since it first flew in 1994 it could have been rushed into production. For ease of design it is remarkably similar to the Squirrel scout helicopter so you could just take the model and put PLA camo and markings on it and voila! You've got a Z-11. By the way could somebody help me hunt down when the Z-11WA was first introduced I'm having a difficult time finding that out. I'd also like it if we could get a transport helo version of the Z-9 helicopter.

All in all I generally liked the PLA in the Beta (we just NEED MOAR TY-90 Z-9s!). These are just my initial views/comments about them. I'll be sure to get in more detail later.

China is not getting a man portable hj8 because US would want TOW infantry to compensate. However, while im not sure about US troops lugging around TOW's, there is evidence of Chinese troops carrying around hj8's in teams of five in combat maneuvers.

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Re: Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

Postby Xeno426 » Tue 11 Mar 2014 23:39

k0m1ssar wrote:Please tell me what Buccaneer would bring to Britain, beside what Jaguar and Harrier have already been doing.

In ALB? SEAD and PGM. The AJ.168 could in reality only be fired from the Buccaneer. The Buccaneer could also launch the AS-37, which have have Britain into SEAD in ALB without a copy of France's Jaguar A. It could have provided a faster bomber than the Harrier family as well.
Also, retard defense.
In RD, it would have been a far more authentic carrier of AShM, since the Sea Harrier FA.2 was generally used for fleet defense (AAMs or AShM) and the Tornado was hardly used for anti-shipping (only a few years, RAF didn't like doing the FAA's job).
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Re: Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

Postby Mitchverr » Tue 11 Mar 2014 23:41

Xeno426 wrote:Also, retard defense.



That 1 never gets old, it would be the most perfect unique thing in the game if it was possible :lol:
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Re: Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

Postby Carnage1138 » Tue 11 Mar 2014 23:57

ninjaminnow12 wrote:China is not getting a man portable hj8 because US would want TOW infantry to compensate. However, while im not sure about US troops lugging around TOW's, there is evidence of Chinese troops carrying around hj8's in teams of five in combat maneuvers.


I should have been clearer when I said "I know what's already been said on the subject." We did not lug around TOWs that's correct. Non-vehicle mounted ones would simply be ferried along with their teams by Jeeps and Humvees and then set up in prepared positions. When it came time to bug out the men would disassemble the weapon and plop it back on the vehicle to be carried to the next location. The only portable ATGM that was lugged around in the field by foot soldiers were the horrible Dragon family ATGMs (although given US doctrine concerning man-portable ATGMs at the time its performance was actually adequate). MILAN was actually carried into the field by infantry and I believe HJ-8 was too. Based upon what you said it would not be unreasonable to see a Jagdkommando-like unit of 5 men with a HJ-8. Again final decision lays in the hands of Eugen but a guy can hope can't he? Especially given the awful performance by RRs against MBTs (although I am in favor of keeping them as they actually work nicely against light vehicles and any French tank NOT named Leclerc that gets within firing range).
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Re: Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

Postby Kovlovsky » Wed 12 Mar 2014 00:19

Drang wrote:Mention Buccaneer and you will get British people. Seriously, we have a text alert set up for every time someone mentions that word, just in case.


I thought this was the BAC TSR-2 who created this phenomenon for the Brits, like the CF-105 Arrow for Canadians.
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