Czechoslovak People's Army v2 - RD DLC Discussion

[Mr0Buggy]

A new thread since the masterpost in the old one ain't in the OP, and some people have requested it being made so.

Proposed CSSR Units - NOTE: It's extremely hard to find any relevant information about possible CSSR post 1989 shopping spree, so bear with me here. Some proposals are based on what DDR/Poland would be getting and as such are only minimally less probable.

Legend:
In service within the timeline
Planned to be bought later on
Prototype or not fielded because of reasons
Less Essential Units
Post Cold War Endeavor
Completely Bonkers Proposal that was put in just because
So obsolete that it hurts

Logistics:

T-72M1K - in service with CSLA. 32 known to be still operable as late as 1991. Same as Polish T-72M1D or any other T-72M1 command variant as far as I can tell.

Mi-9 CV

Supply Mi-4/Mi-8/Mi-17 - considering other NSWP got them [supply helo I mean], I don't see why CSSR shouldn't.

TATRAPAN VSRV - Command Truck

Infrantry:

No idea. Some "real" Spec Ops, but I don't think there's anything elgible to be called that way among CSLA. Maybe just copy picture of Specialni Jednostky, add a beard and call it "Specialni Jednotka Rychleho Nasazeni", equip it similiar to Polish Komandosi and call it a day ? Idk. Suggestions are welcome.

Záložníci - reservists. Suggestions for their weapons welcome.

For their reservists, I've been wanting to see an SKS & RPD unit for a long time.

VZ. 52 Rifle, and VZ. 52 LMG would be a better choice for CSLA Reservist, CSLA never used RPD, and SKS was in service for a year before being thrown out in favor of VZ. 52.

Spoiler : :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vz._52_%28machine_gun%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vz._52_rifle

Igla-1 - Poland planned purchase of the license. It could be assumed CSSR planned to get the system itself at the very least. Idk. about DDR.

RPG-29 - for high end AT unit.

T-21 Tarasnice - Infantry RR

Modern Infantry with LADA project weapons (chambered WP 5.45×39mm) :

Spoiler : :

If wikipedia is to believed, LADA was paused after Velvet Revolution, and not restarted before Velvet Divorce:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8CZ_2000
So I would cautiously see an 1990/1991 entry date for it, with possible prototype status.

More names for CSSR Spec Ops Courtesy of S-8coming

Skupina speciálního určení
Skupina zvláštního určení
VPZU 4
Síly zvláštního určení
Banskobystrický - (??)
Jednotka rychlého nasazení
BRN - Brigáda Rychlého Nasazení


Support:

815 8x8 152 mm ShKH Ondava - very advanced upgrade program of the DANA SPG which produced a few prototypes, interrupted and then cancelled due to Velvet Revolution and Divorce. Upgrades include: Longer barrel with 2 part muzzle breaker, new FCS and reloader. Effectively the maximal range has been increased to approx 32km. Experience with the Ondava has been used in later Slovak upgrades of the DANA systems family. Below photos of the Ondawa in the museum, among them one of it majestically rusting next to it's little brother Strop-2.
Additional information: http://www.kotadef.sk/vyskum-a-vyvoj/zb ... ca-ondava/ in czech. According to this the ammo load is reduced to 40.

Spoiler : :

RM-51 MLRS

Tunguska - lack of any data about it being planned at all. Suggesting it cause that's what both DDR and Poland planned to acquire later on.

BUK - same as above.

BUK-M1

TOR

Both BUK-M1 and TOR were planned to be introduced before 1995

Kub-M4 - also been an option.

Strop-2 - increased availability and perhaps unprototyping ?

Kub-M3 - according to this https://www.isvav.cz/projectDetail.do?r ... ETIA200901 the missile used by Czech Kub's is 3M9M3 variant, which would mean that the system itself is of M3 variety [afaik, someone correct me if I'm wrong]. Since there doesn't seem to be info about Czech Republic acquiring more Kub's since the divorce [nor they would actually have money to do so], it can be reasoned that latest Kub variant in service with the CSLA was the 2K12 KubM3, however there is no exact data about when did this variant entered the service in CSSR.

S300 - [doubtful it gonna be ingame due to it being strategic level asset but still] One battallion created in 1990 and passed on onto Slovakia post Divorce according to the wiki. Can't find more data elsewhere.

2K11 Krug - just cause that one guy can't shut his mouth about it. Old, inaccurate, obsolete, redundant. Not worth the development time given other options.

Tanks:

T-55AM2B with DYNA ERA - information on this is highly limited [to me]. It was apparently shown at IDET 1993. Idk. by whom, if by Slovaks or by Czechs. Only change from original T-55AM2B is addition of DYNAS ERA armor [afaik]. The only pictures I could find are below.

Spoiler : :

Proposed T-72 Tank Lineup:
T-72S and/or T-72S1 were planned to be acquired [tanks and/or license], but negotiations collapsed along with the communism.

T-72M1 and/or T-72M1M covered with DYNAS ERA armor

T-72M2 Moderna (without autocannons)

T-72M2 Moderna with 1x 30mm 2A42 autocannon

Spoiler : Moderna Info :

Source is "Nowa Technika Wojskowa" #3/1995.

Still 2A46:

"Main Armament:
Both tanks feature the same type and variant of the main gun - 2A46, developed by USSR in late 60's."

Though according to the manufacturer, 2A46MS was available since 1994:

Since I couldn't find any hard evidence or sources, I have done what I don't really like resorting to, which was contacting the only folks who could answer the question without any doubt.

I have emailed ZTS - ŠPECIÁL (manufacturers of the 2A46MS) inquiring for information and I have just received an answer:



So while it might not have been part of the Moderna prototype at IDET 1994, it certainly is a viable option to give to some tank with such gun to them, be it Moderna or some other T-72 modification.

Extent of Modifications:
Original:


Translation:

Recon:

BPzV Sněžka
Info thanks to icehawk308

Vehicles:

Additional Variants of present Konkurs carriers upgraded to Konkurs-M - BVP's, BRDM-2

SKOT with OT-62B/TOPAS-2A turret - MG plus RR

BVP-1 with BRDM-2 turret

http://www.wargame-ee.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=373682#p373682

OT-810 Here.

BVP-1 COBRA with 2A42 gun info here possibly ootf

TATRAPAN ZASA (inf transport)

Helo:

Mi-17 (NATO Hip-H) - was in service in CSLA, 6 pylons, most likely for some unguided rockets.

Planes:
Planes moved to post below
...for ease of editing.

Ships:

Copy paste from the USSR or the NSWP brethren.

[Mr0Buggy]

Planes:

Mig-29 9.12 - nothing needs to be added about it.
Possible Mig-29 9.12 loadouts (concerns all NSWP):

As for A2A loadouts available for the MiG-29 9.12A/B, indeed, options are quite limited, but should provide enough alternatives to have 3 countries (POL, CSSR, DRPK) having the MiG-29s which aren't a carbon copy of each other:

2 x R-27R, 4 x R-73
2 x R-27R, 4 X R-60M
6 x R-73
6 x R-60M
2 x R-73, 4 x R-60M

Here's hoping we'll also see the R-27ER, R-27T and R-27ET. That would open options a bit more as well.

More Mig-29 9-12A loadouts:

Allowed air to air configurations are:
I - 1,2 - R-27; 3,4,5,6 - R-60
II - 1,2 - R-27; 3,4,5,6 - R-73
III - 1,2,3,4,5,6 - R-60
IV - 1,2,3,4,5,6 - R-73
V - 1,2 - R-73; 3,4,5,6 - R-60
VI - 1,2 - R-60; 3,4,5,6 - R-73

Allowed air to ground configurations are:
I - 1,2,3,4 - 100 - 500kg bombs
II - 1,2,3,4 - S-24 or S-25
III - 1,2,3,4 - B-20 (S-8 rocket pods)
IV - 1,2 - bombs; 3,4 - S-24, S-25 or B-20

Configurations that "should" work (but are not in the manual):
I - 1,2 - bombs; 3,4,5,6 - R-60 (R-73)
II - 1,2 - rockets; 3,4,5,6 - R-60 (R-73)

Mig-23MLA (??)

Armed with the R-60M and R-24R, the MiG-23MLA would do pretty good for Czechoslovakia

Vasto's Explanation here
Vasto's Explanation part Deux here

SEAD Su-22M4P with Kh-58
Here thanks to Vasto

Su-7 Lineup

Su-22M4 Changed to 6xFAB-500 By Xeno

Su-25K - 4xKh-25L

Su-27 if this man is to be believed, CSSR general staff was interested about acquiring Su-27 (politicians and bean counters not so much). Could maybe (and a giant maybe at that) make for some 1995 modern-ish aircraft ?
Additional context for who the guy is (use google translate).

Further aircraft suggestions by Xeno:

• add MiG-23MF armed with 2xR-23R and 4xR-60
• add MiG-23ML armed with 2xR-24R and 4xR-60M
• MiG-21Bis renamed "MiG-21MF-75" and armament changed to 2xR-3R and 2xR-13M.
• L-39 renamed "L-39ZO".
• MiG-23BN armed with Kh-23M, moved to 1981.

More interesting and useful loadouts for other planes. [Suggestions Welcome]

Spoiler : Short History Lesson About Czechoslovak/Czech/Slovak Tank Development of T-72 Series :

Realization that Czechoslovakian T-72 fleet was very dated and inferior on the modern day battlefield didn't escape then communist leaders, and there were talks with the USSR to get T-72S and T-72S1 for the CSLA, but of course then Autumn of Nations happened, and nothing resulted from those talks. [He didn't specify if those were just tanks or the license too, but I think we can assume the latter.]

In the free Czechoslovakia, discussion about their tanks resumed as early as 1991, however as elsewhere, defense spending was the least concern considering newfound freedom of the Middle European states, and the fall of the Soviet Union, and therofore lack of immediate threat meant that the upgrade programs were given less priority.

Still, in 1992, an evaluation program codenamed Moderna, to determine extent of possibility of modernization of T-72 ,begun in ZTS Martin Traktory Works plant and concluded sometime in 1993. However, with Velvet Divorce on 1st January 1993, effectively Czechoslovakia ceased to exist and two new countries were born. Unfortunately for Czechs, ZTS Martin was located in the Slovak part of the country, and since then, upgrade programs of both, has been somewhat split.

Czech Upgrades within the timeframe:
Due to loss of ZTS Martin to Slovakia, Czech upgrade program was restarted by Military Institute of Land Forces in Vyškově at tank repair plant 025 sometime during the 1993. First result of the program was a prototype seen at IDET Military Expo at Brno in 1994, which was a T-72 with French made sights by companies SAGEM and SFIM, and fitted with DYNA/DYNA-72 ERA manufactured in Slovakia [Slovakian name is DYNAS], as seen below [model with ERA on the left in the background].


T-72M1 with DYNA ERA, exact model unknown:


However, it was found out that FCS was insufficient to the needs of the modern battlefield, and ergo there was need for further upgrades.

New program codenamed VETRA begun in 1995. And that's pretty much it for RD timeframe. The whole program was bugged with bad spending, corruption and misuse of funds. First prototypes saw light of the day in 1997, and were initially named T-72/97, before being renamed into T-72M3CZ/T-72M4CZ.

Slovak Upgrades within the timeframe:
As written earlier, an evaluation program at ZTS Martin Traktory Works plant was conducted towards concept of modernization of T-72, which was codenamed Moderna. Result was the T-72M2 Moderna [named so after the program], which featured DYNAS ERA armor, two 20mm Oerlikon cannons, along with Slovak developed FCS (by companies Fotona, ZTS Dubnica and EVPU Nova Dubnica).

It is said that there was a prototype by 1993, but for certain the Moderna was also shown at IDET 1994. After that, the project went off the maps but was still being worked upon, however nothing more definitive that presentation prototype from 1994 was shown till end of 1995.

Interesting to note is, that post 1997 Moderna ditched double 20mm Oerlikon cannons [reportedly due to too high stress on the turret ring when firing both of the cannons simultaneously] in favor of single 30mm 2A42 autocannon [manufactured in Slovakia under license].

So about that Kladivo FCS, I mentioned in the previous post. As it turns out, it was indeed proposed back during the Polish Wilk program, however Merida/Drawa was chosen instead. As it stands now, it was only used in Czechoslovak T-55AM2B variant, but it stands to reason that would Czechoslovak T-72 upgrades program continue differently in alternate history, it could have been used and further modified to fit the needs of it, alike how Merida of Polish T-55 became Drawa for our T-72's. Just food for thought.

Anyway, to summarize. For certain CSSR could be given T-72S and T-72S1 tanks, as there were talks to buy them or to get a license to manufacture them themselves.

As for Sci Fi and „could have happened” tanks, the T-72M2 [with or without 2x20mm/30mm cannons], with ERA and better [and locally manufactured] FCS, would be the most likely candidate to be included ingame.

[Xeno426]

NSWP got the MiG-29 9-12A. The 9-12B was for nations like the DPRK.

I was also wrong about the MiG-23MLA, though their 23ML's may have been updated to similar standard (need more info).

Their Su-22M4 should not have the FAB-1000; that bomb was discontinued after WWII, and the Su-22M4 couldn't carry the FAB-1500. Instead, I would suggest 6xFAB-500.

[trotskygrad]

CSSR gotten Strela-3 MANPAD: http://i.imgur.com/wSP7i8p.png

why is this a thing? they already have it...

[Xeno426]

CSSR gotten Strela-3 MANPAD: http://i.imgur.com/wSP7i8p.png

why is this a thing? they already have it...

Also, "got" is already past-tense of "get", so there's no need to add "-ten" to the end.

[Flyguy2000]

The Ot-90 (The Kpv armed bmp-1) and ot810 would actually help the cssr deck pretty significantly in the transport cost efficiency department, since the Ot-90 could make a great 2 armored 10 point apc, and the ot-810 transport could give the Vysadkari a 5 point, fast(ish) transport option. The skot with ot-64b/topas turret could also be interesting, but I fear it would be as overpriced as the ot-64a is in alb.

[Graphic]

For their reservists, I've been wanting to see an SKS & RPD unit for a long time.

[Mr0Buggy]

@trotskygrad and Xeno426 - left over from previous thread, practically copy-pasted it . Strela-3 removed.

@Xeno426 - Plane suggestions added. Any other ordinance changes to their lineup you would propose ? Vasto suggested to give CSSR their missing Su-7 lineup. What in your opinion would be best loadouts for those ? Clusters and napalm maybe ?

Other suggestions also added to the OP.

[grgl]

For their reservists, I've been wanting to see an SKS & RPD unit for a long time.

SKS & RPD reservist of glorious design in WRD! Eugen, make it happen!

[Xeno426]

-
@Xeno426 - Plane suggestions added. Any other ordinance changes to their lineup you would propose ? Vasto suggested to give CSSR their missing Su-7 lineup. What in your opinion would be best loadouts for those ? Clusters and napalm maybe ?

Click my sig.