Type 85 and 90: decent quality Chinese tanks

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ericdude88
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Re: Type 85 and 90: decent quality Chinese tanks

Postby ericdude88 » Wed 12 Feb 2014 17:59

So far, no one has volunteered to join my new charity organization :oops:

Drang wrote:
First prototype 1996. OOTF. What MBT is more OOTF?





You're kidding me, right?

[EUG]MadMat wrote: ... ending with the group often being reduced to Stalin, and sometimes a lucky one whom had avoided the purges ... or was dead too early to do any harm. :lol:

That was very impressive ...


This is actually quite sad... :(
Last edited by ericdude88 on Wed 12 Feb 2014 18:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Type 85 and 90: decent quality Chinese tanks

Postby Kovlovsky » Wed 12 Feb 2014 18:03

[EUG]MadMat wrote:I have read a book about Stalinian propaganda "photoshoping" pictures over the years. What is impressive is that they've sometimes done that on a same picture to delete every time more people.
For example, in a group picture taken in the early 20's, with Stalin and 5 or 6 other guys, one would be deleted in the 30's, two others during the war, and some other in the 50's ... ending with the group often being reduced to Stalin, and sometimes a lucky one whom had avoided the purges ... or was dead too early to do any harm. :lol:

That was very impressive ...


Yes, I'm always amazed at how it was developped to become a real art. Some photos are so well modified that you need to be an expert or examine the photo very closely to know the difference. It's fascinating how they went to great length to erase the memory of purged collegues and revolutionaries. Do you have the name of the book? I would like to read it. I find this a fascinating subject. (I'm a francophone Quebecer, so if it's in French, I will have no problem to read it.)
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Re: Type 85 and 90: decent quality Chinese tanks

Postby Killertomato » Wed 12 Feb 2014 18:31

ericdude88 wrote:
You're kidding me, right?

(


Why would he be? It's a good question. The M1A2 is 1992, the Challenger 2 is 1993, the Leopard 2A5/KWS II was complete as a prototype in 1990 and in full production in 1995, the Leclerc is 1989, the T-72BU was around before 1993, the Type 90 is 1989, the K1 is 1985...
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

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Re: Type 85 and 90: decent quality Chinese tanks

Postby another505 » Wed 12 Feb 2014 19:47

[quote="Drang"]

First prototype 1996. OOTF. What MBT is more OOTF?



yea, but H-J bring some good answer to it
(now if i could i find his post :roll: but i kinda remember it)
it had an introduction ceremony in 1996
so it was produced before 1996
and it had an extra extensive 5 years trial before which could be shorten to 2-3 years
the extra years were test in the high mountains in the west and some other weird landscapes, but the tank was never used for there in the end. Another tank fulfilled that role
the long testing period didnt change the tank fundamentally
so the first version was adequate
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Re: Type 85 and 90: decent quality Chinese tanks

Postby Mikeboy » Wed 12 Feb 2014 19:49

Killertomato wrote:Why would he be? It's a good question. The M1A2 is 1992, the Challenger 2 is 1993, the Leopard 2A5/KWS II was complete as a prototype in 1990 and in full production in 1995, the Leclerc is 1989, the T-72BU was around before 1993, the Type 90 is 1989, the K1 is 1985...


Challenger 2 is 1993 production, 8 prototypes built between 1989 and 1991.

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Re: Type 85 and 90: decent quality Chinese tanks

Postby Killertomato » Wed 12 Feb 2014 20:00

Mikeboy wrote:
Challenger 2 is 1993 production, 8 prototypes built between 1989 and 1991.


That's why I didn't qualify it by saying it was a prototype.
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

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Re: Type 85 and 90: decent quality Chinese tanks

Postby H-J » Wed 12 Feb 2014 20:08

yea, but H-J bring some good answer to it
(now if i could i find his post :roll: but i kinda remember it)
it had an introduction ceremony in 1996
so it was produced before 1996
and it had an extra extensive 5 years trial before which could be shorten to 2-3 years
the extra years were test in the high mountains in the west and some other weird landscapes, but the tank was never used for there in the end. Another tank fulfilled that role
the long testing period didnt change the tank fundamentally
so the first version was adequate


Yeah, my argument was based on those things you mentioned, and this photo:

Image


Caption gives us the date December 1996 for the introduction of the new PLA 3rd generaion tank (read: ZTZ-98), and shows us those tanks in ceremonial red.

I guess the mystery is over. It is not 1998, but 1996. Which also means that the small scale production must have begun at least a year earlier...


And my other point was this one:

The low rate production indeed started in '98, but the tank could have been finished faster than that, if there werent such rigourous tests. The high altitude tests took the longest, but the fact still stand that the Chengdu Military Region that oversees Tibet and the border to India doesnt even field ZTZ-99s, but its little brother, the ZTZ-96. The ZTZ-99 is exclusively used in the Beijing Military Region and Shenyang Military Region, facing Russia and Korea respectively. Now, the ZTZ-99 is also introduced for the armored units facing central asia in the Lanzhou Military Region, but still, Tibet gets none. Instead, China now introduces a completely new light tank class (kinda like an up-armored XM-8 AGS in appearance) for Tibet. And that, as a reaction to the recent militarization on the Indian side of the border, with the new 'mountain strike corps' of the Indian army.
So, if the need arises, China would have accelerated the testing phase, omnitted the high altitude tests and produced the ZTZ-99 in 1993-94 the latest.


I have to correct myself here. It seems, based on the photo and the apparent handover ceremony to an operational unit (as only those warrant the traditional chinese ceremony of cutting the red band and decorating the new toy), the low rate production didnt start in 1998 as previously thought, but must have been before that 1996 ceremony.
China usually introduces even her newest stuff battalion wise, which is at least 31 tanks for mechanized regiments (or 41 for armored brigades) , and her production rate of that time was one battalion a year. China hardly introduces only a handful of samples into an active battalion, and leaves that particular battalion with a mishmash of different hardware that would screw up logistics, training and operation. Always either a full battalion, or nothing at all.

So, the low rate production must have begun a year earlier than 3rd December 1996. Or the latest in Janurary 1996.

Since the ZTZ-98 was a new tank, I'd even say that the production begun even earlier than that, somewhen late 1994, as the production lines are usually not that fast and efficient for the first batch, and usually take longer than a year for a full battalion, compared to the production rate for tanks that were in active service and production far longer.

Hence, the ZTZ-98 could have been included, as it isnt that OOTF as previously thought.

But well, It was my fault, actually, as I discovered this photo (which was in my own goddamn ZTZ-99 folder all the time!!!) far too late. I've cited wikipedia and other websites that gave that 1998 number, which appears to be wrong.

My sincere apology for all PLA fans out there. I failed as Marshall.

I repent. :oops:
Last edited by H-J on Wed 12 Feb 2014 20:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Type 85 and 90: decent quality Chinese tanks

Postby Mikeboy » Wed 12 Feb 2014 20:13

Killertomato wrote:
Mikeboy wrote:
Challenger 2 is 1993 production, 8 prototypes built between 1989 and 1991.


That's why I didn't qualify it by saying it was a prototype.


I know, but thought it was worth noting.

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Re: Type 85 and 90: decent quality Chinese tanks

Postby ericdude88 » Wed 12 Feb 2014 20:49

H-J wrote:Hence, the ZTZ-98 could have been included, as it isnt that OOTF as previously thought.

But well, It was my fault, actually, as I discovered this photo (which was in my own goddamn ZTZ-99 folder all the time!!!) far too late. I've cited wikipedia and other websites that gave that 1998 number, which appears to be wrong.

My sincere apology for all PLA fans out there. I failed as Marshall.

I repent. :oops:


Well, you can always make up for it by fighting for the ZTZ-98 in the first WRD DLC ;)

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Re: Type 85 and 90: decent quality Chinese tanks

Postby another505 » Wed 12 Feb 2014 21:29

is fine H-j
without you, i think china will be a spam nation...


we can always hope for DLC :lol:
just hope madmat reads it
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