The reasons naval units were a bad idea

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orcbuster
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The reasons naval units were a bad idea

Postby orcbuster » Wed 26 Feb 2014 17:13

The main fundamental problem with the game ATM is that naval (not amphibious units, they work great) are horribly implemented to say the least on several levels, some of them in such a way that I have a hard time imagining how they will fix it. And here I will list the major issues I have with them.

These are not balance issues but fundamental game mechanic implementation issues

1: Number of different types of naval units (or lack of)

This is the most major issue. There are simply way too few of them. Wargame as it is right now has about 1400 units of which maybe 60-70 are dedicated naval combat units. This would be fine if naval combat was integrated on the same level with the rest of the game as planes were in ALB but they aren't, which brings me to my next point.

2: Its essentially it's own gamemode

Unlike the airwar in ALB naval units operate largely within a realm of their own. In short, it becomes the same battle again and again caused by the lack of ship variety. This is not a good way to promote a lasting experience. In essence we end up with a W:EE situation only with about a quarter of the number of unts that game had.

3: It affects the groundwar in a very negative manner.

So what happens when you take these elements and mix it up with the Wargame we love and know from before?
It ruins it essentially by having an inferior game detract from a superior part of it. The current situation is that we now have a seperate minigame mode on Naval maps that in essence affects the landwar but not the other way around. On these maps, naval domination decides the game outcome, making the game rely on this monotonous unvaried gamemode that really does not belong there at all and only takes away focus from the brilliant part of wargame, the ground war. It becomes that one thing that we HATE: namely a gimmick.

4: It ruins national decks.

You know what a lot of us like to play with? national decks. You know what is one way to ruin a lot of the fun of playing with national decks? forcing us to use mixed units on 20% of the maps. Enough said.
Last edited by orcbuster on Wed 26 Feb 2014 17:34, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The reasons naval units were a bad idea

Postby KattiValk » Wed 26 Feb 2014 17:26

orcbuster wrote:1: Number of naval units.
Isn't the saturation in-game a little ridiculous at the moment? While I only see a few boats be used in engagements repetitively (at the time of this post I've seen one person in naval combat so that may or may not be true). I see players often spawn in an absolutely ridiculous number of boats and anti-ship helicopters and then throw them at each other, more boats doesn't sound like a positive addition to that.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more units (but of course Eugen is busy at work making a train game?) which could be solved by really low availability on destroyers so people don't throw them at each other like so many targets.

orcbuster wrote:2: Its essentially it's own gamemode.
I can't comment on this having not played anything myself, but it is true that with the current range and stats of ships they don't seem to be shot at by much outside of the naval category.

orcbuster wrote:3: It affects the groundwar in a very negative manner.
Haven't played the game so I don't know the feel, but it's beta right?

orcbuster wrote:4: It ruins national decks.
I want a full US, Brit, and French navy but they likely won't be happening. :(

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Re: The reasons naval units were a bad idea

Postby orcbuster » Wed 26 Feb 2014 17:30

the reason why number of naval units available is one of the major problems is that it essentially turn every game into the same game. We see the same units over and over with no variety whatsoever. I don't know if more units could solve that but as it is it simply isn't working.
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Re: The reasons naval units were a bad idea

Postby trotskygrad » Wed 26 Feb 2014 17:31

kiheerSEDMAN wrote:
orcbuster wrote:1: Number of naval units.
Isn't the saturation in-game a little ridiculous at the moment? While I only see a few boats be used in engagements repetitively (at the time of this post I've seen one person in naval combat so that may or may not be true). I see players often spawn in an absolutely ridiculous number of boats and anti-ship helicopters and then throw them at each other, more boats doesn't sound like a positive addition to that.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more units (but of course Eugen is busy at work making a train game?) which could be solved by really low availability on destroyers so people don't throw them at each other like so many targets.

orcbuster wrote:2: Its essentially it's own gamemode.
I can't comment on this having not played anything myself, but it is true that with the current range and stats of ships they don't seem to be shot at by much outside of the naval category.

orcbuster wrote:3: It affects the groundwar in a very negative manner.
Haven't played the game so I don't know the feel, but it's beta right?

orcbuster wrote:4: It ruins national decks.
I want a full US, Brit, and French navy but they likely won't be happening. :(


He means the variety of ships, not literal number you can spawn.
NEXT TIME I SEE A DAMN FLAMEWAR INVOLVING DARTH-LAMPSHADE, FROSTPOOKY, LONERIFLE, FADE2GRAY, TROTSKYGRAD AND/OR ANYONE INVOLVED IN A DISCUSSION BETWEEN THEM I'M GOING TO HAND OUT BANS TO ANYONE USING ANYTHING LOOKING REMOTELY LIKE AN AD-HOMINEM

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Re: The reasons naval units were a bad idea

Postby orcbuster » Wed 26 Feb 2014 17:32

trotskygrad wrote:
kiheerSEDMAN wrote:
orcbuster wrote:1: Number of naval units.
Isn't the saturation in-game a little ridiculous at the moment? While I only see a few boats be used in engagements repetitively (at the time of this post I've seen one person in naval combat so that may or may not be true). I see players often spawn in an absolutely ridiculous number of boats and anti-ship helicopters and then throw them at each other, more boats doesn't sound like a positive addition to that.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more units (but of course Eugen is busy at work making a train game?) which could be solved by really low availability on destroyers so people don't throw them at each other like so many targets.

orcbuster wrote:2: Its essentially it's own gamemode.
I can't comment on this having not played anything myself, but it is true that with the current range and stats of ships they don't seem to be shot at by much outside of the naval category.

orcbuster wrote:3: It affects the groundwar in a very negative manner.
Haven't played the game so I don't know the feel, but it's beta right?

orcbuster wrote:4: It ruins national decks.
I want a full US, Brit, and French navy but they likely won't be happening. :(


He means the variety of ships, not literal number you can spawn.


Basically yes, sorry if that was unclear, will edit OP
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Re: The reasons naval units were a bad idea

Postby Tugboat » Wed 26 Feb 2014 17:33

You can actually spawn too many ships. But they are very limited in type.
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Re: The reasons naval units were a bad idea

Postby Yakhont » Wed 26 Feb 2014 17:35

Will its too late for major changes to the game

What Eugen ca do is tweak the stats of the units
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Re: The reasons naval units were a bad idea

Postby orcbuster » Wed 26 Feb 2014 17:38

Yakhont wrote:Will its too late for major changes to the game

What Eugen ca do is tweak the stats of the units



Thats exactly the problem, this is basically a half-assed gimmick at this point. Balance tweaks of any kind won't help due to the fundamental issues with it.

It REALLY makes me worried about the games future, whether or not they should call it a loss and simply cut it out of the game altogether.
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Re: The reasons naval units were a bad idea

Postby KattiValk » Wed 26 Feb 2014 17:40

trotskygrad wrote:He means the variety of ships, not literal number you can spawn.
I was aware of that, sorry I wasn't clear enough with what I was saying. I said the current availability would mean more ships (different types) would equate to more cards of ships that you can send into the funfest. I proposed that an availability nerf would be in order for big ships so you can't simply throw them away.

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Re: The reasons naval units were a bad idea

Postby orcbuster » Wed 26 Feb 2014 17:42

kiheerSEDMAN wrote:
trotskygrad wrote:He means the variety of ships, not literal number you can spawn.
I was aware of that, sorry I wasn't clear enough with what I was saying. I said the current availability would mean more ships (different types) would equate to more cards of ships that you can send into the funfest. I proposed that an availability nerf would be in order for big ships so you can't simply throw them away.


Reworking the entire naval deck system from scratch would actually be a nice start.

Still wouldn't fix the major issue though
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