Dassault Rafale VS Eurofighter Typhoon

ikalugin
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Re: Dassault Rafale VS Eurofighter Typhoon

Postby ikalugin » Mon 20 Oct 2014 09:47

Good stuff, thanks.
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Re: Dassault Rafale VS Eurofighter Typhoon

Postby Corsair » Mon 20 Oct 2014 17:02

ikalugin wrote:How much is it then?

Rafale C – 58 M€
Rafale B – 62 M€
Rafale M – 66 M€

Taxes non included.

With taxes : http://www.senat.fr/rap/a13-158-8/a13-158-814.html

Le coût unitaire (hors coût de développement) de 74 M€ (2013) pour le Rafale B (pour 110 avions) de 68,8 M€ (2013) pour le Rafale C (pour 118 avions) et de 79 M€ (2011) pour le Rafale M (pour 58 avions).

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Re: Dassault Rafale VS Eurofighter Typhoon

Postby ikalugin » Mon 20 Oct 2014 17:28

So approx. 90 million USD? That sounds expensive for a 4th generation plane.
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Re: Dassault Rafale VS Eurofighter Typhoon

Postby Corsair » Mon 20 Oct 2014 17:34

ikalugin wrote:So approx. 90 million USD? That sounds expensive for a 4th generation plane.

Remember that, in the Rafale, there is :
- a strategic nuclear bomber
- a low-level penetration bomber (with the most powerful automated low-level penetration system all around)
- an air superiority fighter
- a reconnaissance and ELINT aircraft

All of those can be handled as efficiently as (if not more) with specialized aircraft (F-15E/2000D, F-15C/2000-5F, etc..).

All of that packed up with excellent data fusion and sensor integration (undoubtedly the best of the market), a very powerful EWS suite (again, said to be top notch), and with unmatched payload and fuel capacities.

The Tiffie is €110M in comparison.

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Re: Dassault Rafale VS Eurofighter Typhoon

Postby ikalugin » Mon 20 Oct 2014 17:40

You could buy Su34 and Su35S for one Rafale then. Does Rafale really have payload/strike range advantage over the Su34?
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Re: Dassault Rafale VS Eurofighter Typhoon

Postby Corsair » Mon 20 Oct 2014 17:52

That'd be doubling personnel formation costs, flight hour costs, maintenance costs etc..
If French Air Force decided to standardize everything and abandon the precedent formula of 1 role = 1 aicraft, there's definitely a reason.

Payload capacity is said to be similar, and Rafale has the range and consumption advantage.
And I doubt the Su-34 is as efficient as Rafale is certain domains, such as low-level penetration.

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Re: Dassault Rafale VS Eurofighter Typhoon

Postby Majorpain » Mon 20 Oct 2014 18:01

Rafale may well be a good fighter, but the costs have inflated a fair amount...

During the Congress party’s rule the Indian government did not blink at the prospective bill for the Rafale, which more than doubled from $10 billion in 2009 to some $22 billion today, and which figure realistically will exceed $30 billion, or $238 million per aircraft, at a minimum.


From http://www.newindianexpress.com/columns/Why-Rafale-is-a-Big-Mistake/2014/07/25/article2346825.ece

The biggest benefit for India is all that nice shiny new technology to update its aerospace industry, it certaintly doesn't look like good value for money.

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Re: Dassault Rafale VS Eurofighter Typhoon

Postby Corsair » Mon 20 Oct 2014 18:07

Majorpain wrote:Rafale may well be a good fighter, but the costs have inflated a fair amount...

During the Congress party’s rule the Indian government did not blink at the prospective bill for the Rafale, which more than doubled from $10 billion in 2009 to some $22 billion today, and which figure realistically will exceed $30 billion, or $238 million per aircraft, at a minimum.


From http://www.newindianexpress.com/columns/Why-Rafale-is-a-Big-Mistake/2014/07/25/article2346825.ece

The biggest benefit for India is all that nice shiny new technology to update its aerospace industry, it certaintly doesn't look like good value for money.

What other aircraft would be a serious concurrent for the Rafale then ? Do you have any clear data on their price and on their deal's conditions (transfer of technology, etc..) ?

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Re: Dassault Rafale VS Eurofighter Typhoon

Postby ikalugin » Mon 20 Oct 2014 18:09

It allows per same airforce capability to significantly reduce costs, as a Su35S+Su34 pair is more capable than single Rafale (or EFT for that matter). We could compare the flight hour prices later.

Well, lets say both aircraft take 8000 kgs of weapons. How much fuel (at max take off weight) could both planes carry? Rafale could carry around 6200 kgs (4700kgs internal), Su34 could carry 13800 kgs (12100 of which would be internal fuel).

Where does the Rafale get the range advantage? Per same payload it carries half of the fuel, with a larger proportion of fuel being carried externally. Morever (pure) range values are again in favor of Su34, 4500km vs 3700km.

Su34 is actually a dedicated low level penetrator, and hence carries 1480 kgs of armor (and other measures to increase survivability against harassing ground fire), has a good deal of internal space for crew comfort, as well as automatic low level flight, internal targeting system (no need to carry the targeting pod), 6 internal jamming apertures and what not.
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Re: Dassault Rafale VS Eurofighter Typhoon

Postby Corsair » Mon 20 Oct 2014 18:19

I don't know where you saw that Rafale could carry only 1,5t externally. The usual long range strike configuration consists in three 2000L RPL701 tanks which roughly doubles its fuel capacity. Considering the AL-31F burns on average 10-20% more than the M88-2, I think it's safe to assume that the Rafale has, at least, an equivalent combat range.

What are Su-34's low level performances ?

(no need to carry the targeting pod)

Since the Damocles uses a dedicated hardpoint (unlike the Typhoon) this is not a big deal for the Rafale.

6 internal jamming apertures and what not.

I'd be really surprised that the Su-34's EWS system surpasses the SPECTRA..

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