Zoring's Recon ReWork and ReFitting

Izo Azlion
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Re: Zoring's Recon Overview and Re-Fitting

Postby Izo Azlion » Fri 28 Mar 2014 09:05

Everyone is getting very technical with terminology and really, it's BS.

There are two types of Recon infantry most people seem to take when it's available.

They appear to be - 2 man Sniper/Spotter teams like the Canadian Recce, and the 10 man 'combat' able teams. One is used to always be invisible, the other is a larger group to accompany the front line infantry and not get blapped as soon as they are spotted.

Right now, there is little reason to take some variants of these Recon units because they are poor, slow, badly equipped or a blend of all three.

The recon tree is the one place where a little creativity should be encouraged, and right now, apart from a few units, it is very bland. So the OP has the right idea here. C'mon Eugen, let's see something interesting, like the Recce - an AP rifle, awesome!

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Re: Zoring's Recon Overview and Re-Fitting

Postby Bryan » Fri 28 Mar 2014 09:10

You lack true and unique Aussie stuff. :)

How about:
LANCERS
CAVALRY SCOUT

Lancer....ah.....personal favourite.
Regular, usually transported in UNIMOG light trucks, no ASLAV, S-70 is fine.
F-88, M72, F89
Should be a "standard" recon scouts.

Cavalry scout
Shock training, usually heavily armed and direct action capable, comes with ASLAV-PC and UNIMOG like in real life.
Should be more like rangers.
F-88, M2 Carl Gustav, FN MAG 58


Currently...
NORFORCE
Militia scouts. poorly armed and "light".

SASR could kinda be "operator" recon, honestly, NZSAS is pretty bad now.

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Re: Zoring's Recon Overview and Re-Fitting

Postby Zoring » Fri 28 Mar 2014 19:24

I have updated my first post with some tweaks and changes, based on your comments. I hope to get some more discussion going about this topic. I will continue to update the first page over time with suggested unit rosters and so on.

I would further propose that all of the Special Forces in the infantry tab get moved back to the Recon section, this will allow them to access the new catagories of 'Recon Transports' as well as being more fitting. This would also free up both Infantry slots (which people often complain of) and allow people to use the underutilized Recon section (I myself don't often use more than 3 cards, Foot Scout, Helo, Vehicle). This idea might be considered too radical, but I don't think there is any special forces which don't operate or aren't capable of a reconnaissance role at least part of the time.

Recon squads are now purely Observers, they aren't super hard to spot but should be able to be effective long range scouts with exceptional optics.

Elite troops I tossed up between Very Good optics and availability, at first I went with availability, but then decided, well they are the best of the best so higher optics, but that means less men, so I put them back to 4. (Obviously it's all wildly theoretical, but play-testing would balance it out.)

I feel strongly that these changes would lead to a wider use of the Recon category, As well as giving each unit a role and a niche to fill.

Operators stealth increased to represent their Silenced Weapons and smaller squad size.

Snipers/Observers rolled into one class.

Sunshine: Don't get hung up on the name categories, that's just for ease of explanation, in-game we don't have units listed as 'Shock Infantry' they just have different unit card backgrounds, it's just for the purposes of discussion.

What would be wrong with certain recon having excellent spotting?

Mikeboy: I always choose 10 man recon squads when I can (the only real option now is the Czech Specialini) because they are capable of fighting as well or better than regulars, and spotting units that they are fighting (regular infantry apparently can't see a target 400 meters away most the time) I think people would find use for even small amounts of very effective recon that can see their own targets.

BryanI didn't want to initially suggest more new units for Eugen to make, even as fun as that would be. I would be greatly in favour of a couple new units for the ANZACs though and those are good choices.
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Sunshine
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Re: Zoring's Recon Overview and Re-Fitting

Postby Sunshine » Fri 28 Mar 2014 21:05

Zoring wrote:Sunshine:What would be wrong with certain recon having excellent spotting?

"Very good" recons are good enough already. They spot alot. If you want more, you have to risk them being spotted while getting closer to the objective.

If you just give them excellent stealth and excellent spotting, they could sit somewhere 2 klicks away and call in precision strikes, or recce the whole AA network for arty strikes, same for CVs etc.

It simply becomes a no-brainer with excellent optics for infantry, which is why Eugene didn't create any infantry with excellent spotting skills.

As for the terminology. We have "shock, "elite" and all that in the unit card information. I thought you wanted something like this for the recons too and then what I said earlier would matter in terms of authenticity. It was not meant for nitpicking, I honestly think a correct terminology is important in such games, that's all.
Awesome rework of your thread btw...

@ Izo Azlion: "Everyone is getting very technical with terminology and really, it's BS."
So...you say apples are more delicious than bananas and therefor it is BS that I dislike apples?
Sounds legit. :roll:
Don't see what's so bad about keeping the terminology somewhat authentic. You act as if someone would have to suffer under it...
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Re: Zoring's Recon Overview and Re-Fitting

Postby raventhefuhrer » Fri 28 Mar 2014 21:11

I agree by the way that exceptional optic infantry recon wouldn't be a good thing. A guy with binoculars can only do so much, and exceptional optics recon should be used only to represent specific units that have advanced electronic optics mounted in a vehicle.

Again, I feel the most important part of this thread is buffing shock recon to 10 men.
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Sunshine
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Re: Zoring's Recon Overview and Re-Fitting

Postby Sunshine » Fri 28 Mar 2014 21:14

raventhefuhrer wrote:I agree by the way that exceptional optic infantry recon wouldn't be a good thing. A guy with binoculars can only do so much, and exceptional optics recon should be used only to represent specific units that have advanced electronic optics mounted in a vehicle.

Again, I feel the most important part of this thread is buffing shock recon to 10 men.

Yes I agree. "Shock" doesn't really apply to a small 5 men team. It seems arbitrary.
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Zoring
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Re: Zoring's Recon Overview and Re-Fitting

Postby Zoring » Sat 29 Mar 2014 06:21

Back in ALB me and a friend were curious what exactly exceptional optics meant. After testing it, it very much seemed to be the exact same spotting range. What our testing seemed to show was that it just helps to spot units with higher stealth rather than at a longer range. Spotting range seems either another stat, or dependent on some other factor such as line of sight, maybe even same spotting ranges for all.

Well shock is a peculiar name for a level of training when referring to a 5 man recon squad for sure. But it just shows their ROF bonus rather than their ability of smashing in butts.
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Sunshine
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Re: Zoring's Recon Overview and Re-Fitting

Postby Sunshine » Sat 29 Mar 2014 06:30

Zoring wrote:Back in ALB me and a friend were curious what exactly exceptional optics meant. After testing it, it very much seemed to be the exact same spotting range. What our testing seemed to show was that it just helps to spot units with higher stealth rather than at a longer range. Spotting range seems either another stat, or dependent on some other factor such as line of sight, maybe even same spotting ranges for all.

Well shock is a peculiar name for a level of training when referring to a 5 man recon squad for sure. But it just shows their ROF bonus rather than their ability of smashing in butts.

ROF = smashing butts.
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Re: Zoring's Recon Rebalance and ReFitting

Postby Zoring » Sat 29 Mar 2014 20:10

Can't argue with that.

First page significantly updated, text edited for brevity (too many words, probably scaring people), infographic of concept added, availbilty ideas tweaked.

See below for how I envision my East German recon page to look up if my changes were implemented, lots of things to note including new transport for infantry (note the SPW-40A :D) revised stats and availability for infantry. Plus re-organised sections, helo, tracked, wheeled, infantry.

East German Revised Recon Concept
http://i.imgur.com/KKOpD30.jpg
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Mako
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Re: Zoring's Recon Rebalance and ReFitting

Postby Mako » Sat 29 Mar 2014 20:28

I think it is quite good overall, however Exceptional optics on infantry would be a very poor idea.
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