Zoring's Recon ReWork and ReFitting

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chykka
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Re: Zoring's Recon Overview and Re-Fitting

Postby chykka » Sun 30 Mar 2014 10:25

Mikeboy wrote:
Zoring wrote:Spec Ops: Good

Force Recon: Good

Operators:Very Good

Scouts: Excellent,


The worse trained infantry getting the best optics makes no sense to me. Also with paltry availability and a high price why would I take Spec Ops instead of an infantry elite unit and a scout? Seems to me this system would kill Force Recon and Spec Ops.


MM but makes sense to me. Remember in EE when Delta force doubled as recon? Right now only advantage for the 'reserve' recon like BGS is price and maybe a decent transport.



Nerdfish wrote:Turning some useless recon vehicles into transport is not a bad idea at all. but I don't know why they should lose their spotting ability. They should keep it, so they can scout while they scout :D


I very much thought the same, Why can't you fit a 2 or 5 man squad in a UAZ? Well the driver yeah, but it would make it safer to drive around not needing to unload all the time to scout, and get a potentially ,(average optic vehicle, or a second recon..?) If it is a recon able transport. It should bear the full cost of a recon vehicle.
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Re: Zoring's Recon ReWork and ReFitting

Postby Zoring » Sun 30 Mar 2014 14:09

Drang wrote:Conceptually good, weak execution let down by too many parts. Just differentiate them into two categories:

Line "fighting" recon: Everything armed w/ an LMG or DMR. 10 man, of varying quality.

"Eyes" cheap recon, such as the BGS, Grenzers, etc. 5 man squads at trained.

Sniper stay as snipers.

None of this "operators" L33t 720 noscope bollocks.


l337 noscope! Why you practically called me a Call of Duty player, i've never been so offended! :D

I essentially agree with your sentiment, my breakdown should be considered more of a framework, there would be some units that go into either category, and national units for flavour, for example SAS and FJB40 don't really fit into any. In-game the specific categories wouldn't be mentioned, that's just to make the concept easier to grasp.

The 'operator' concept actually came about from a couple things including wanting to see the use of small jeep style vehicles armed with Grenade Launchers and so on, and seeing the Little Bird helo in the helicopter section, then thinking RD is set in 1992, battle of Mogidishu was in 1993, the Delta teams coming in on little birds and the Rangers in Blackhawks. So a type of unit that can use these small helos rather than these SOF soldiers roaring in on huge chinooks was concieved, plus we have very few units that use DMR style weapons.

Chykka/Nerdfish: I reasoned that the recon transports such as the UAZ/Rover should lose that spotting ability because they probably represent a squad of guys in them, this way they operate more as they should, plus you have improved firepower for your recon squad (such as the North Korean wheeled recon that has a ATGM). All the other types of vehicle recon will still be covered becuase you have vehicles like the BRDM or BMP which are dedicated non-transport recon vehicles.

Recon Optics: I will actually do some testing in regards to how they work, whether it improves spotting distance or just how easy it is to spot units with 'stealth/size' and so on. It's also possible to just make the snipers more expensive or have less availability whilst still having exceptional recce abilities, making the choice having some excellent recon, but very risky.

As we know, it's a thought exercise anyway, since I don't have a coloured name i'm unlikely to change any minds at Eugen headquarters :P
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Re: Zoring's Recon ReWork and ReFitting

Postby Sunshine » Sun 30 Mar 2014 14:26

Except for 360° noscope 1337 names that don't say anything at all ("Operator"), we could simply categorize the units after their ingame job...

SEALs: Direct Action (10 men, AR, GL, MG, very good optics&stealth, Elite SOF, 35pts)
Delta: Special Reconnaissance (5 men, AR, DMR, AT, very good optics&stealth, Elite SOF, 25-30pts)
Ranger: Combat Support (10 men, AR, AT, MG, good optics&very good stealth, Shock, 25pts)

Something like that, you catch my drift.
Last edited by Sunshine on Mon 31 Mar 2014 01:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zoring's Recon ReWork and ReFitting

Postby Drang » Sun 30 Mar 2014 14:35

Zoring wrote:
Drang wrote:Conceptually good, weak execution let down by too many parts. Just differentiate them into two categories:

Line "fighting" recon: Everything armed w/ an LMG or DMR. 10 man, of varying quality.

"Eyes" cheap recon, such as the BGS, Grenzers, etc. 5 man squads at trained.

Sniper stay as snipers.

None of this "operators" L33t 720 noscope bollocks.


l337 noscope! Why you practically called me a Call of Duty player, i've never been so offended! :D

I essentially agree with your sentiment, my breakdown should be considered more of a framework, there would be some units that go into either category, and national units for flavour, for example SAS and FJB40 don't really fit into any. In-game the specific categories wouldn't be mentioned, that's just to make the concept easier to grasp.

The 'operator' concept actually came about from a couple things including wanting to see the use of small jeep style vehicles armed with Grenade Launchers and so on, and seeing the Little Bird helo in the helicopter section, then thinking RD is set in 1992, battle of Mogidishu was in 1993, the Delta teams coming in on little birds and the Rangers in Blackhawks. So a type of unit that can use these small helos rather than these SOF soldiers roaring in on huge chinooks was concieved, plus we have very few units that use DMR style weapons.

Chykka/Nerdfish: I reasoned that the recon transports such as the UAZ/Rover should lose that spotting ability because they probably represent a squad of guys in them, this way they operate more as they should, plus you have improved firepower for your recon squad (such as the North Korean wheeled recon that has a ATGM). All the other types of vehicle recon will still be covered becuase you have vehicles like the BRDM or BMP which are dedicated non-transport recon vehicles.

Recon Optics: I will actually do some testing in regards to how they work, whether it improves spotting distance or just how easy it is to spot units with 'stealth/size' and so on. It's also possible to just make the snipers more expensive or have less availability whilst still having exceptional recce abilities, making the choice having some excellent recon, but very risky.

As we know, it's a thought exercise anyway, since I don't have a coloured name i'm unlikely to change any minds at Eugen headquarters :P


Rerolling the LARO Pinky into a unique transport for the SAS would be much more appropriate than having it wander around on it's tod; a GSR-equipped Spartan/FV432/FV511 can fill the gap of exceptional optics vehicle. But at the moment you're just trying to shoehorn in a very America-centric view of how recce should work. SAS/SBS teams realistically functioned as 4-man fire teams rather than deploying a full patrol of 8-12 as a maneuver unit, but right now the 10-man "fighting" recon vs 5-man "observation" recon is the best compromise. 5-man MG teams can't survive a firefight, 10-man teams can't fight.

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Re: Zoring's Recon ReWork and ReFitting

Postby Zoring » Sun 30 Mar 2014 14:45

Well having a 4 man SAS team would be fine with me to be honest (though I guess it needs to be 5 in-game), they need some weakness!

I'd very much like to have national flavour as well, having a small team that can do sneaky damage, scout but will get shredded by anything that spots them and can utilize things such as Rovers and Little birds was my goal, not trying to be american-centric (specially as i'm an Australian :P).

A scout unit with a Semi-auto sniper could also operate with your infantry in an assault, by providing their eyes and shooting from long range with their rifle whilst the regulars take the hits.

I'm going to go ahead and change the 'l33t hax' names now.
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Re: Zoring's Recon ReWork and ReFitting

Postby Drang » Sun 30 Mar 2014 14:55

I think keeping it as 10-man assault, 5 man observation, and 2 man sniper teams is decent.

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Re: Zoring's Recon ReWork and ReFitting

Postby Zoring » Sun 30 Mar 2014 15:11

Well if we can just have units like the Green Jackets being 10 man instead of pointless 5 man guys that cost 20 points, that would be a great success.
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Re: Zoring's Recon ReWork and ReFitting

Postby Tiera » Sun 30 Mar 2014 16:48

The idea of adding unused recon vehicles as ground transports for recon inf makes a lot of sense, and I fully support this proposal.
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Re: Zoring's Recon ReWork and ReFitting

Postby Drang » Sun 30 Mar 2014 16:56

Zoring wrote:Well if we can just have units like the Green Jackets being 10 man instead of pointless 5 man guys that cost 20 points, that would be a great success.


+1

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Re: Zoring's Recon ReWork and ReFitting

Postby shomu1 » Sun 30 Mar 2014 22:04

So I'm a little confused here, and it'd be nice if someone could clear this up:

So with this re-work, ALL special forces units would get moved to the recon category? Or would there still be some in the infantry tab to function as assault SOF kind of like Delta tries to do now?
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