Zoring's Recon ReWork and ReFitting

Zoring
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Zoring's Recon ReWork and ReFitting

Postby Zoring » Fri 28 Mar 2014 07:12

Zoring's Recon Rework and Refitting
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edit: Somethings have changed since I made this, noteably shock recon becoming 10 man, which is great, I might go and edit this thread later once I have played a bit more of the latest version of Wargame, but manyof my points should still be valid!

Recon Re-Jig for DLC3 !

Goals:
1. Rebalance existing Recon units to have a unique role
2. Utilize redundant and ineffective options, particularly Recon vehicles.
3. Balance Recon infantry with Infantry section
4. Make more effective use of 5 Card Deck System


We can do this by a very simple re-working of the units that currently exist within the RECON section, primarily the infantry. The best thing is this will require NO new units or models!

White boxes indicate units that would have to be re-worked (stat changes and transports) Red boxes indicate a Special Forces unit moved from Infantry to Recon.

Please note that these were all made a few patches back, so there will be a few new things including recon Tanks, but the principals still work.

*EDIT* Revised recon section full screen concepts, with new Category Examples!
Poland (Direct Action)
UK (Shock Recon)
USSR (Snipers)
ANZAC (Special Recon)
E-Germany (Scouts)
Canada (Snipers)
Czechoslovakia (Special Recon)
USA (Special Recon)
Denmark (Scouts)



Concept Infographics.
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Click the images to see HIGH RES new Recon section concept.
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There is a very large gap between some of the very useful and combat effective 10 man squads, that cost around 25 points, and the far less effective and suboptimal 5 man, 20 point squads. The un-armoured recon vehicles are also never seen.

Below is my concept of new Recon Categories or Classes, this would be subject to further balancing, as well as tweaks for national flavour. For the purposes of balance, being a spotting 'recon' unit is worth about 5 points extra compared to a regular infantry of comparable combat potency.

The below categories would not all be used in every nation, some nations will have access to some types. the USA would have access to most of these categories for example, whilst the East Germans only 2.

NOTE: Category names are just there for the purposes of discussion, not accuracy.

Suggested Recon Class Catagory Review:
Catagory Name Squad Size, Veterancy, Base Availbilty/Cards, Weaponry, Stealth, Spotting, Suggested Price, Transport Type, Current Example Unit


Direct Action: 10 Man, Elite, 4/2, Assault Rifles/RPG,Very Good, Very Good, 30p, Helo/Hummer, NZSAS/SEALS,


Assault Recon: 10 Man, Shock, 8/2, Assault Rifles/RPG, Very Good, Good, 25p, APC/LAV, Green Jackets


Special Recon: 5 Man, Shock, 8/1, Silenced Carbines/Marksman Rifle, Excellent, Very Good 20p, Little Bird/Armed Jeep, Pruzkumnici


Scouts: 5 Man, Regular, 16/1, Rifles/RPG, Stealth: Good, Exceptional, 15p, Armed Jeep/BTR, Grenzer/Norforce


Snipers: 2 Man, Elite, 4/1, Sniper Rifle or Anti-Material Rifle, Excellent, Exceptional, 30p, Jeep/Little Bird, Jeongchaldae/Recon


The Transports of these units will also be worked over, with all of the ones suggested as new transports losing their spotting ability, with a corresponding drop in price, I feel this is very important as almost none of these units are currently in use in-game because of their high price and high vulnerability, it is a waste of modelled assets. By my count, almost 92 units are redundant in the Recon section.


Each categories role is therefore:

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Direct Action: Anti-Infantry, close range, deadly anti-infantry brawlers, with good situational awareness to stay in touch with command, but the best soldiers available, rare.

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Assault Recon: All Rounders, primary mission to engage frontline enemy assets and report on enemy activity, access to Armoured APCs

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Special Recon: Harrasment, the mid-range, capable of fighting or recon, hard hitting but fragile, with small helicopters for insertions, or small fast vehicles and jeep for raids

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Scouts: Observers, no fighting ability, not too hard to spot but equipped with powerful spotting equipment for long range recon.

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Snipers: Infiltrators, well armed but vulnerable recon, offensively used for picking off vulnerable strategic assets, CV's, Unprotected SAMS


Now some examples, trying to use in-game assets, as well as new suggested pricing for new transports without their special recon spotting ability in brackets.

(Please note, I mean no bias, and I am no expert on TO&A in Regards to a real units specific role, also if something is wrong or OOTF, don't be nitpicky, let us focus on the overall concept rather then specifics atm.)


US Recon Roster:
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Navy SEALS, Direct Action: 30p, AK-47, Hawk MMI, Stoner
M9398 Humvee (5), UH-1N Twin Huey, CH-46 Phrog, UH-60A Blackhawk

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Rangers, Assault Recon: 25p, Car-15, Carl Gustav M2, M240
M1025 Minigun/Mk.19 Humvee (15), M151A2 FAV (10), Uh-1H Huey, S-70 Blackhawk

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Delta Force, Special Recon: 20p, Silenced M4, M-21 DMR
M1025 Minigun/Mk.19 Humvee (15), MH-6 Little Bird

(A Marine Force Recon unit could utilize LAV's as well as a new unit example)


ANZAC Recon Roster:
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Norforce, Scouts: 15p, L1A1 SLR, M72 Law
Rover (5), LRPV Rover (10), LRPV Perentie (15)

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SASR, Direct Action: 30p, Aug Para, Carl Gustav, M60E3
ASLAV-S (10), ASLAV-25 (25), S-70 Blackhawk

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NZSAS, Special Recon: 20p, L34A1, L96A1
LRPV Rover (10), Bell 206 (20)


E-Germany Recon Roster:
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Spezialaufklärer, Assault Recon: 25p, Mpi-KM, RPG-7V, PKM
THS MI-24/25, SPW-40(10)

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Grenzer, Scouts: 15p, Mpi-K, RPG-2
AufkFz UAZ KPV (5), AufkFlz UAZ KPV (10), SPW-40A (15)

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FJB-40, Direct Action: 25p, Mpi-K, Strela, RPG-7V
SPW40 (10), SPW-70, THS-M8TV, THS-MI-25


A Few other example units:

UK:
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Green Jackets, Assault Recon: 25p, L1A1, M72 LAW, L7A1
Saxon, FV103 Spartan (10), Puma

Canada:
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Recce, Snipers: 25p, C7, C15 LRSW
ILTIS SCOUT (10), CH-136 (20)

I believe these changes would bring about the use of all those un-armoured recon vehicle units that otherwise clutter up the screen. Whilst leaving the haevily armed and armoured recon units and specialised ones for their decks (Ferret, m11a3 etc, Bradley-Tow etc)

Obviously there is a large potential to add new units and models, but a restructuring like I have proposed would make the most of in-game assets (additional unit card backgrounds would be nice to differentiate the different Recon types for example, but not necessary)

*Edit*
I would further propose that all of the Special Forces in the infantry tab get moved back to the Recon section, this will allow them to access the new catagories of 'Recon Transports' as well as being more fitting. This would also free up both Infantry slots (which people often complain of) and allow people to use the underutilized Recon section (I myself don't often use more than 3 cards, Foot Scout, Helo, Vehicle). This idea might be considered too radical, but I don't think there is any special forces which don't operate or aren't capable of a reconnaissance role at least part of the time.

Please comment and add your suggestions, and if Eugen is listening, I hope they can consider the proposal. The East German Recon section image here, would be an excellent and easily implemented 'Proof of Concept'

Updated with FJB
http://i.imgur.com/0CqNWhM.jpg
Last edited by Zoring on Thu 16 Jun 2016 09:34, edited 51 times in total.
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raventhefuhrer
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Re: Zoring's Recon Overview and Re-Fitting

Postby raventhefuhrer » Fri 28 Mar 2014 07:21

I agree that the middle-tier recon is in a very bad place, mostly because they come in such small squads.

Would love to have the 'Shock Recon' - Commandos Para, US Rangers, Green Jackets, and so on be able to double as 'Shock Infantry', as I think would really be their capability in real life. This is a change I've wanted for a -long- time and would definitely welcome it.

It'd also give nations like East Germany another 'air assault infantry' option in a pinch, to accompany FJB-40 or replace them if you expect to have to fight more infantry than helicopters.
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Re: Zoring's Recon Overview and Re-Fitting

Postby ImpulseNOR » Fri 28 Mar 2014 07:24

I agree.

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Re: Zoring's Recon Overview and Re-Fitting

Postby Asphyxiation » Fri 28 Mar 2014 07:47

+ one from me,
The thread raises important points in balance to do with the situational use of certain specialized units and proposes balance aspects that make use of all types of recon SF, and allowing players to actually use them all in different ways rather than using that one 'super' recon SF unit.

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Re: Zoring's Recon Overview and Re-Fitting

Postby Mikeboy » Fri 28 Mar 2014 07:48

Zoring wrote:Spec Ops: Good

Force Recon: Good

Operators:Very Good

Scouts: Excellent,


The worse trained infantry getting the best optics makes no sense to me. Also with paltry availability and a high price why would I take Spec Ops instead of an infantry elite unit and a scout? Seems to me this system would kill Force Recon and Spec Ops.

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Re: Zoring's Recon Overview and Re-Fitting

Postby raventhefuhrer » Fri 28 Mar 2014 07:54

Mikeboy wrote:The worse trained infantry getting the best optics makes no sense to me. Also with paltry availability and a high price why would I take Spec Ops instead of an infantry elite unit and a scout? Seems to me this system would kill Force Recon and Spec Ops.


To begin with, I'm on board with this thread primarily because I want shock recon buffed to 10 man squads.

But to Zoring's point, I think what he's trying to do is differentiate recon infantry primarily there for actual scouting, and 'recon' special forces that are more there for killing things and invasive maneuvers. And I think that does make some sense - a Grenzer squad is focused on their binoculars while a SEAL team is running around with a grenade launcher.

And I don't think people will stop taking Navy SEALs if they get an optics nerf.

Still, I could take or leave this change. I just really want shock recon to get a strength buff.
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Zoring
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Re: Zoring's Recon Overview and Re-Fitting

Postby Zoring » Fri 28 Mar 2014 07:55

Well currently elite infantry units have about the same availability as a High End recon unit, the extra 5 points accounts for their scouting bonus. Plus they could be equipped with dangerous Anti-Infantry specialist weapons that Infantry don't have access too such as Grenade Launchers and RPO's

It's not about the training so much as it is about their battlefield role. A Spec Ops team deep in enemy lines shooting hundreds of guys is not going to be setting up a long range radio transmitter to broadcast their signal.

A unit of adequatly trained soldiers sitting high up on a hill with a huge pair of binoculars and a massive radio set who brought that instead of Grenade Launchers and MG's to the fight are going to be seeing far more. That's the rationalisation.
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Re: Zoring's Recon Overview and Re-Fitting

Postby Mikeboy » Fri 28 Mar 2014 07:56

raventhefuhrer wrote:To begin with, I'm on board with this thread primarily because I want shock recon buffed to 10 man squads.

But to Zoring's point, I think what he's trying to do is differentiate recon infantry primarily there for actual scouting, and 'recon' special forces that are more there for killing things and invasive maneuvers. And I think that does make some sense - a Grenzer squad is focused on their binoculars while a SEAL team is running around with a grenade launcher.

And I don't think people will stop taking Navy SEALs if they get an optics nerf.


I already don't bother with recon SF because it gets only 4 availability per card. If they are unable to spot all that much what reasoning do you have to take them over non-recon shock or SF infantry?

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Re: Zoring's Recon Overview and Re-Fitting

Postby Mitchverr » Fri 28 Mar 2014 07:57

I would suggest rolling the sniper and 2 man oberver squads into 1, as they would do the same job irl in many aspects and its also much easier for ingame terms and ofcourse, asking for less "moar unitz" etc. As the role is to watch for both anyway and most observer groups would have snipers wouldnt they?

And yeah, recce SF should keep their top end spotting aswell, just armed different (inf fighting SF are in your inf tab)
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Re: Zoring's Recon Overview and Re-Fitting

Postby Sunshine » Fri 28 Mar 2014 08:15

You put lots of effort into this, no doubt.
But it doesn't convince me to be honest.
System we have is good, though some minor tweaks wouldn't hurt... but this would be like a complete overhaul that isn't necessary from my point of view and could lead to a lot of extra work.

Some quick notes:
- Infantry with excellent spotting skills would be just crazy. Against it.
- Why would a sniper team be worse at stealth than a regular spotter team? "Spotters" are not SOF, they are regular soldiers that got a temporary task - they are not specially trained or equipped for this, as long as we don't speak designated scout units.
- "Spec Ops" would more be a CoD-like designation, those units are not "Special Operations" they are "SOF", Special Operations Forces , huge difference, one is the task, one is the unit.
- The term Operators doesn't make much sense. A Navy SEAL is also an Operator, so is any member of a SOF unit. Your example though fits - Deltas always referred to themselves as operators, other units later adopted this designation. The term just doesn't describe any specific role they perform - like the others, that is my problem with it I guess.

The negative things aside, I like the vehicle suggestions, or at least I agree that in this area, we really need to see changes and more freedom for all nations.
I want to decide how I send my most precious units into combat/their recon mission... and I would never pick the friggin fat never-landing CHINOOK... :evil: to send 10 men secretly behind enemy lines -.-
So, Little birds for sniper and small recon teams would be very awesome and others already suggested that.
Hope it will happen... and Black Hawks. We need Black Hawks for US SOF. It is ridiculous they don't have em. Make an extra version, like the MH60L so it is exclusively for these units, but hell...do it Eugene, please.
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