SAM/ A2A Missile Discreptancies

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icehawk308
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SAM/ A2A Missile Discreptancies

Postby icehawk308 » Wed 2 Apr 2014 01:19

Not arguing about range (obviously) or accuracy as thats also arguable but looking at the thread of how nerfed the Mig-25 is (yet to see one in battle :roll: )
viewtopic.php?f=160&t=42245

Got me thinking about HE damage of various missiles.

Name/ Real Life warhead Kg/ HE dmg in game

R-60, 3kg, 3 Dmg :cry:
R-73, 7.4kg, 5 Dmg
AIM-9, 9.4kg, 4-5 Dmg
Magic/Magic2, 12.5kg, 4 Dmg :|
MICA, 12kg, 5 Dmg
AMRAAM, 18-23kg, 5 Dmg
R-77, 22kg, 5 Dmg
PL-11, 33kg, 5 Dmg
R-27, 39kg, 6 Dmg
AIM-7, 40kg, 5-6 Dmg
R-33, 47.5kg, 7 Dmg
R-37, 60kg, 8 Dmg
AIM-54, 61kg, 8 Dmg
R-40, 70kg, 6 Dmg :o

SAMs:
Stinger, 3kg, 5 Dmg :shock:
SA-13, Strela-10, 5kg,5 Dmg :|
Chaparral, 12kg, 5 Dmg
SA-8/ Osa, 16-40kg, 5-6 Dmg
HAWK, 54kg, 8 Dmg
SA-6/ Kub, 60kg, 7 Dmg
SA-3/ Neva, 60kg, 10 Dmg :roll:
SA-11/ Buk, 70kg, 8-9 Dmg :?

3-5kg 3 dmg
5-10kg 4 dmg
10-30kg 5 dmg
31-40kg 6 dmg
40-60kg 7-9 dmg
61-70+kg 10 dmg??

The list is no means exhaustive, just a sampling. Yes im aware of different fuses and targeting types altering the efficiency of the warhead so dont bring this up. More of a focus on the sheer weight of frag stuff thrown in the air.

    Findings or the :roll: list:

    -How come the stinger & R-60 have such different damage (3 & 5) but same warhead wt?
    -Magic/Magic 2 with its heavier warhead has less damage than competition, and MICA has 1 more but same HE wt?
    -PL-11 has 33% or 11kg more HE than R-27 but 1 less damage?
    -R-40 which throws the BIGGEST A2A warhead in game, with missile the size of a large car, has 6 damage while equivalent Neva/Buk have 9-10???

We can we have some standardization?

By the chart above R-40 and SA-11 should have 9-10 Damage (70kg HE), Stinger needs to be 4, missiles much bigger in size, HE wt etc do much lesser damage (likely same for all Cat A Manpads) SA-13/ Strela-10 is in the same boat. Magic/Magic2/Pl-7 need a bump. Sa-3/Neva needs a nerf (maybe the giant missile itself is a HE+?)

Input would be helpful. Overall the balancing looks quite fine, except a few glaring omissions. Yes missile speed, exotic Frag patterns & seekers should alter damage sure but not when a 700m/s, 3kg HE stinger has the same hitting power as a 1000m/s 16-19kg HE SA-8/Osa :roll:

Or a minibus sized Mach 4.5 70kg HE R-40 delivering 1 more HE than the 3kg stinger... (23x bigger warhead....... ) :shock:

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Re: SAM/ A2A Missile Discreptancies

Postby k0m1ssar » Wed 2 Apr 2014 02:17

This is some impressive work you've got there.

I think Eugen should definitely look into this: we have very limited access to detailed information on the specific mechanisms, so the amount of fragments extrapolated from warhead weight is really all we have to work with.

But we do have to taken into account the types of target the weapon itself typically deals with: Stinger mostly used against choppers shouldn't be compared to AIM-54 specialized against strategic bombers.

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Re: SAM/ A2A Missile Discreptancies

Postby Killertomato » Wed 2 Apr 2014 02:27

I think SAMs and AAMs are balanced against themselves, not eachother. Heck, I think MANPADS are all balanced against each other...
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Re: SAM/ A2A Missile Discreptancies

Postby icehawk308 » Wed 2 Apr 2014 02:28

k0m1ssar wrote:But we do have to taken into account the types of target the weapon itself typically deals with: Stinger mostly used against choppers shouldn't be compared to AIM-54 specialized against strategic bombers.


Agreed hence mentioning the Osa, which is also a low level ADM. Honestly though 4 HE for a MANPAD is plenty, considering most choppers fall in the 6hp range. 5HE, compared to stuff that carries %500 more explosive power is a little wonky (see Osa), hence the post. Magic/PL-7 could also use a +1 HE boost.

With the larger missiles, only the Neva/ Buk should be looked at. Neva is actually too high, should be less with a corresponding cost decrease. ESPECIALLY the R-40 could use a revamp. 6 Dmg for the biggest anti-air warhead/missile in the game is insulting :| Matching it to the LRAAMs in the 8 dmg range makes sense.

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Re: SAM/ A2A Missile Discreptancies

Postby CloakandDagger » Wed 2 Apr 2014 03:22

I'm in the 9 to 10 HE for the R40 group. Just doing that will balance the Mig25 like it needs. Though it also needs to be 1200kph speed.

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Re: SAM/ A2A Missile Discreptancies

Postby Fade2Gray » Wed 2 Apr 2014 04:37

As a former 14R of the US Army, I definitely cocked an eyebrow when I saw how Stingers could be 5 HE. The warhead on Stingers is tiny, and depends heavily on a direct kinetic hit to inflict any damage. Granted, it is an agile little missile and with its dual track (IR/UV) seeker, it is hard to shake, but it simply is not known for getting hard kills. Crippling HINDs and forcing them to land, or forcing them to disengage and ROB? Yeah, but not much else.

Making all MANPAD SAMs HE 3 would not be a bad thing.
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Re: SAM/ A2A Missile Discreptancies

Postby Mitchverr » Wed 2 Apr 2014 04:43

icehawk308 wrote:
k0m1ssar wrote:But we do have to taken into account the types of target the weapon itself typically deals with: Stinger mostly used against choppers shouldn't be compared to AIM-54 specialized against strategic bombers.


Agreed hence mentioning the Osa, which is also a low level ADM. Honestly though 4 HE for a MANPAD is plenty, considering most choppers fall in the 6hp range. 5HE, compared to stuff that carries %500 more explosive power is a little wonky (see Osa), hence the post. Magic/PL-7 could also use a +1 HE boost.

With the larger missiles, only the Neva/ Buk should be looked at. Neva is actually too high, should be less with a corresponding cost decrease. ESPECIALLY the R-40 could use a revamp. 6 Dmg for the biggest anti-air warhead/missile in the game is insulting :| Matching it to the LRAAMs in the 8 dmg range makes sense.



Most redfor choppers land 6 he, most blufor transports are 4. But seriously, 6-8 doesnt matter in air to air, other then for killing 8 hp choppers, its balanced vs that i suspect.

Dont forget also, some of these detonate in proximity, others actually hit target, and ofcourse, the splash damage goes up significantly as the he goes up on missiles.
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Re: SAM/ A2A Missile Discreptancies

Postby icehawk308 » Wed 2 Apr 2014 04:56

Fade2Gray wrote:As a former 14R of the US Army, I definitely cocked an eyebrow when I saw how Stingers could be 5 HE. The warhead on Stingers is tiny, and depends heavily on a direct kinetic hit to inflict any damage. Granted, it is an agile little missile and with its dual track (IR/UV) seeker, it is hard to shake, but it simply is not known for getting hard kills. Crippling HINDs and forcing them to land, or forcing them to disengage and ROB? Yeah, but not much else.

Making all MANPAD SAMs HE 3 would not be a bad thing.


Agree 4 tops and that works with Helicopter hitpoints as well.

Mitchverr wrote:Most redfor choppers land 6 he, most blufor transports are 4. But seriously, 6-8 doesnt matter in air to air, other then for killing 8 hp choppers, its balanced vs that i suspect.

Dont forget also, some of these detonate in proximity, others actually hit target, and of course, the splash damage goes up significantly as the he goes up on missiles.


Aware that there are differences in warheads (Continuous Rod, 80s HMX Air Target Warheads, now Aimable warheads) and detonators (direct, radio, laser, proximity etc etc) But those are already represented by say Sparrow variants getting +1 HE in later versions, same with Sidewinder, Kub, etc.

Were talking about oddball results when accounting for those such as nuclear Stinger (or any 3kg 5HE manpad) or the mega nerfed R-40 , which has an Radar and active laser fuze and the biggest AA warhead in game but barely scratches more than the mighty stinger. :roll:

about 6-8 dmg not mattering - in a multiple dogfight with missiles flying yes it will. By that count try nerfing 203mm arty to 122mm damage and see what I mean.

Im only trying to point out the obvious inbalance. +1 HE for advanced warhead type and/or fuse makes sense but beyond that is a little much.

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Re: SAM/ A2A Missile Discreptancies

Postby Mitchverr » Wed 2 Apr 2014 05:02

If thats the case, can we get a 90% hit chance for starstreak? considering it is technically firing 3 missiles in 1 go, thus representing all missile chance to hit as this was designed in order to keep the target hit even with say, 1 of the 3 missiles failing.


Also blowpipe as the most powerful manpads followed with jav, which use a ton of explosives (and their ability to shoot ground targets perhaps).

Seriously, this stuff doesnt do well with "realism" placed on it, it simply doesnt, its better to have balance over "realism".
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Re: SAM/ A2A Missile Discreptancies

Postby Cheesehead » Wed 2 Apr 2014 05:06

Mitchverr wrote:If thats the case, can we get a 90% hit chance for starstreak? considering it is technically firing 3 missiles in 1 go, thus representing all missile chance to hit as this was designed in order to keep the target hit even with say, 1 of the 3 missiles failing.


Also blowpipe as the most powerful manpads followed with jav, which use a ton of explosives (and their ability to shoot ground targets perhaps).

Seriously, this stuff doesnt do well with "realism" placed on it, it simply doesnt, its better to have balance over "realism".


But whats the harm in increase the R-40 HE? It' already got pretty bad accuracy, and frankly I wouldn't mind if they buffed it to 9-10 HE and nerfed the accuracy a couple levels; it be like having a flying S-125 while I think it still won't out-range a lot of the MRAAM's.
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