Li Jian '90

ubermensche
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Re: Li Jian '90

Postby ubermensche » Tue 8 Apr 2014 20:51

Spitzenhund wrote: A good deal of Blufor planes can release their payloads before getting shot down. You either have Navy Seals/Assault Engineers, Blu Dragon murder weapons, F111's or Ceasers/Mirages/Fallschirmjager.


So you think that the solution to Li Jian is to fly 100+ bombers into AA nests? Even they do release their payloads before being shot down, what are the chances that they survive? And even if they do, it takes a friggin long time to repair and rearm them. Meanwhile, the other side can quickly replenish his losses.

Arty takes some time to aim and it takes some time for the shells to hit its target. Even with fast aiming arty like the CAESAR. It may work very well if the infantry is immobile or in the open, moving slowing (but as I already said, infantry in the open is guaranteed to die 90% of the time). Don't forget that in cities, infantry can "teleport". So hardly a solution.

And Fjr, just like every single other infantry unit, will have their arses handed to them by Li Jian.

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Re: Li Jian '90

Postby k0m1ssar » Tue 8 Apr 2014 20:53

I don't say this often, but you whiners seriously need to L2P.

Fallschirmjager got nerfed because it had better anti-inf DPS than spetsnaz as well as anti-armor capability. Even now they murder everything without a napalm launcher.

If enemy special forces specialize in anti-inf, send in armor to crush them. If they got other AT inf mixed in, you bomb or arti them (F-111CS= instant town clearing). If all else fail, flank them from multiple sides with hordes of cheap infantry so they use up all their rockets. If you want a comfortable hard counter to everything the enemy side has, you are playing the wrong game.

Against ammo nerf: consider how many rockets can 5-men squad of Assault Engineers and Fire support squads can pack, then extrapolate to 10-men squad of special forces. You'd see it is not the way to go.

Men number nerf: if we were to get 5-men squad instead of 10-men squad we'd ask for double availability buff as well as price buff.

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Re: Li Jian '90

Postby ubermensche » Tue 8 Apr 2014 20:59

Another solution to balancing Li Jian:

Move the CQC mg and move the RPO there. And then reduce that RPO to like 2-3 rounds, and give them an RPG as tier 2 weapon. That way, they can give Pact players the sexual satisfaction of instagibing every single NATO infantry but not for a very long time. Once ammo runs out, Pact players can either pull them away or risk it being outgunned by standard infantry. And in this case, maybe give it only 1 card of 8 vet and 6 elite.

And I mean usually, the weapon roster goes:
Primary: Self-defense weapon
Secondary: AT weapons
Terciary: Heavy anti-infantry weapon (exception would be SAS and those DDR commandos with their AA)

Li Jian and Spetsnaz are a violation of this rule by having 2 heavy anti-infantry weapons.

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Re: Li Jian '90

Postby Ressk » Tue 8 Apr 2014 21:04

ubermensche wrote:Li Jian and Spetsnaz are a violation of this rule by having 2 heavy anti-infantry weapons.


"rule"

i think its called asymmetrical balance.

might be just me :P

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Re: Li Jian '90

Postby DrRansom » Tue 8 Apr 2014 21:07

I thought that elite infantry with anti-infantry only weapons were the rule, not the exception?

It is far better to have elites that are powerful but inflexible, so they have to be taken and used selectively, then have elites that are powerful and multipurpose. --> This incentivizes the use of shock and (gasp, horror) line infantry.

PS. EuroCorps / Commonwealth complaining about Li Jian '90? Isn't dominance in all other phases of the game sufficient for you?

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Re: Li Jian '90

Postby F-22 » Tue 8 Apr 2014 21:11

ubermensche wrote:
Spitzenhund wrote: A good deal of Blufor planes can release their payloads before getting shot down. You either have Navy Seals/Assault Engineers, Blu Dragon murder weapons, F111's or Ceasers/Mirages/Fallschirmjager.


So you think that the solution to Li Jian is to fly 100+ bombers into AA nests? Even they do release their payloads before being shot down, what are the chances that they survive? And even if they do, it takes a friggin long time to repair and rearm them. Meanwhile, the other side can quickly replenish his losses.

Arty takes some time to aim and it takes some time for the shells to hit its target. Even with fast aiming arty like the CAESAR. It may work very well if the infantry is immobile or in the open, moving slowing (but as I already said, infantry in the open is guaranteed to die 90% of the time). Don't forget that in cities, infantry can "teleport". So hardly a solution.

And Fjr, just like every single other infantry unit, will have their arses handed to them by Li Jian.



FJ90 flavor is having the best AT for a special forces squad in the game. They're like Komandosi in ALB, they're great to murdering everything that isn't specialized for killing infantry. In ALB, Komandosi get slaughtered by assault engineers. FJ90 are great at killing most infantry, just not the ones specialized to fight and eliminate infantry.

You're looking at this like X unit cannot beat Y unit, X unit needs a nerf, even though Z can kill them for the same cost.

FJ90 can't kill Spetznaz, but 3 assault engineer squads can kill Spetznaz.

Or if there's enough to warrant a strike, 1 F-111C can erase the town completely.

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Re: Li Jian '90

Postby Spitzenhund » Tue 8 Apr 2014 21:22

ok I think i'm starting to understand OP. He simply wants PACT SF to be tuned down to NATO standards because clearly NATO isn't powerful enough right now.

If his F-111's/Ceasers/Fallschirmjager can't take the town then I will be very surprised. Because I play a great deal of PACT and I have cities taken from me all the time if my enemy just bombs the hell out of everything first.

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Re: Li Jian '90

Postby T80U = tankbankai » Tue 8 Apr 2014 22:05

Not another thread like this.

Li Jian 90 and Spetsnaz are ELITE ANTI INFANTRY, INFANTRY they should be roflstomping infantry in towns and forests, complaining that they killed your line or shock infantry? sucks I know but 1: they are less trained then them. 2: their loadout is designed to engage infantry and armor not just infantry hence having less infantry killing power than Li Jian 90/spetz.

The only thing they should be nerfed in is availability like the other special forces but that's for another thread.
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Re: Li Jian '90

Postby Rabidpalidinski » Tue 8 Apr 2014 22:53

elmoking wrote:Spets and Li Jian can be countered by NATO units which use SMGs, if you can get your way within 82m. In cities its quite possible, in forests basically no. Gurkhas are a good match for Spets in cities with heavy micro. But I agree they should be nerfed. Tbh, I think instagib weapons should be taken out of the game, perhaps Spets and Li Jian can be given 2 MGs or something to compensate.


I like to deal with them with a combined mix of he and smoke arty followed by a combined infantry/armored support assault (with a layered air defense to back them up). I personalty find mortars, tube and rocket arty as well as both cannon, auto cannon and napalm units to be very effective to both flush them out when supported with infantry to assist in both killing, distracting and stunning them.
EDIT:never forget the option of both fixed and roto wing air support (just make sure the ao is clear of hostile AA (SEAD and recon help) and that they are protected with A2A capable escorts (again both fixed or roto wing) or are covered by your air defense network (to deter and prevent hostile retaliation, be it fixed or roto wing).
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Re: Li Jian '90

Postby CornProducts » Tue 8 Apr 2014 23:00

I can think of a couple different ways to deal with napalm rocket infantry in towns.

Sometimes letting them have the town is the best action. Divert your forces elsewhere and come from behind while your opponent focuses on defending the town.

Sometimes you just have to take the damn thing to prove that your the man, so here are a few options, many of which have been suggested.

1. Stun with mortars before moving in with more infantry that he has. Defenders almost always have the advantage, that is a pretty basic rule.

2. Get a cheap grenade launching/rocket podding/autocannoning chopper to assist your spoiled NATO troops. No rockets come out of the Spetznaz pain factory when they are stunned, and having the advantage of calm infantry vs panicked infantry can turn around any fight.

3. Sit back like a girl and shell the crap out of the town with 203mm artillery. If he wants the damn town so much let him have it, and use it to squeeze points out of him like a communist point sponge.

4. Grab a flamethrower vehicle sit back at 1000m meters while your roast the town in segments. Invite over some cheap infantry to finish up the leftovers of your barbeque.

5. Get some throwaway infantry (terrotrials, heimatschuetzen etc) and throw those to the front while you have a force of 2 engineers on standby. The elite infantry of your bolshevik enemy will have to kill 6 groups (that's 90 troops dawg) just to make up the cost of one group of a 30 point 10 man squad. While your enemy is feasting on the souls of your massacred troops scoot up your engineers. By the time your engineers get there the Spetz/Lia whatsits will have no rockets left and be worried or shaken.

Tunnel vision can occur when you know the enemy has locked down a town you already have your heart set on. Don't just think of throwing your best infantry to fight his in a glorious clash of the titans. Infantry like Spetz give up anti-tank capabilities so they can ravage infantry more. It only makes sense that they will be the top of the food chain as long as they stick only to that role.
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