USSR AA helicopters

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icehawk308
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USSR AA helicopters

Postby icehawk308 » Fri 11 Apr 2014 21:38

Several threads thus far, especially "USSR - something is wrong" viewtopic.php?f=155&t=42994 note the poor status of soviet helicopter/airborne charges in begging of the games

Now let's get back to numbers: Let's compare for example France vs CSSR, yesterday I bought two top helicopters, KA-52 and Ka-50 they were flying together, player send 1 Tiger HAP to counter them and you know - both Ka was shoot down even without making a shot.
Ka-52 - price 150 pts., Ka-50 - price 150 pts. Both carries AA missiles, range ~2400, acc ~50, meanwhile Tiger HAP cost is just 90 pts., AA missile range ~2600, ACC ~ 60.
Same with airplanes, same with tanks, same with anti-air and artillery.

Simply what I am trying to say - CSSR needs fast fix, reduce tank price, reduce helicopter price (damn why Ka-52 or Ka-50 cost so much? Or then increase Tiger HAP and HAD price, improve AA, increase number of infantry).

Meanwhile meat you in the game - just now I will switch to BLUE side.


Madmat has so far countered that Soviet Airborne deck is the only one fully mechanized in game, but that doesnt solve ANY early game heli rushes.

Another counter is that Soviet forces are already strong in some other area. However, as noted by the Eugen staff, Coalitions were developed ingame to give all/almost all the capabilities of the Majors (US/USSR). In fact, as outlined by several individuals, USSR is the ONLY faction (major/coalition) unable to carry out a heliborne assault of this nature. Therefore, USSR does not have the all aspect capability that US or Coalitions have. Another way of saying is that USSR requires to be in coalition with Poland or China (impossible) to have full capabilities of US or any Coalition :roll:


Some sensible solutions:
All do not require any new modelling.


Mount R-60s on Mi-24K Recon Heli - its currently a 110pt Big sized (easy arty/Air Sup target) scout who has to run for his life if he encounters any AA-Heli on the map. Complete waste of points. As shown below R-60s were mounted on Mi-24s by the Soviet Union. Potentially the R-60M variant could be used with +1HE on account of using DU in its warhead. 2 to 4 R-60s would give these a fighting chance in the early phase of a battle where helis rule the sky.
An upgraded version, the R-60M (NATO 'Aphid-B'), using a nitrogen-cooled seeker with an expanded view angle of ±20°, was introduced around 1982.
The R-60M is 42 mm (1.7 in) longer, and has a heavier, 3.5 kg (7.7 lb) continuous-rod warhead, increasing launch weight to 45 kg (99 lb). In some versions the warhead is apparently laced with about 1.6 kg (3.5 lb) of depleted uranium to increase the penetrating power of the warhead

The Mi-24K did perform A2A interception missions.
Air-to-air missiles were tested on the Mi-24 during the 1970s (Strela) and the late 1980s (R-60 and R-73). Some Russian publications report that a few GFSG "Hind" squadrons were equipped with R-60 missiles, unfortunately without giving further details and testimonials seem to be absent as if the subject was taboo. The fact is that the use of the Mi-24 based in the GDR for air-to-air interceptions cannot be questioned. On July 19, 1988 - one year after the landing of Mathias Rust on Red Square with a Cessna 172 on May 28, 1987 - USMLM tour officers observed a Mi-24K and a Mi-24V from Stendal performing air-to-air combat training. However, back in 1986, a USMLM report mentioned this: "... HIND helicopters were observed in combined arms attacks, working closely with fixed wing aircraft, during night flare and adverse weather training, and in possible air-to-air intercept scenarios."

http://www.16va.be/4.2_les_mi-24_part2_eng.html
Mi-24V; R-60 (K-60; NATO AA-8 'Aphid') air-to-air missiles optional on underwing pylons

http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/mi-24.php
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*Not necessarily an accurate representation however there is information that the R-60 could be mounted in the inner Flanga pylon. Inaccurate weapon loadout is represented oftentimes in Wargame, although its improving.
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Mi-8AMTSH - A 1996 Prototype (therefore limited to soviet deck) Earlier year entry can be explained by Soviet Union existence/WW3 capability as its 1 year OOTF. Could be outfitted with
"- four Igla guided missiles, 40 S-8 unguided rockets;
- eight Ataka/ Shturm guided missiles, four Igla guided missiles.
- eight Igla guided missiles, four Ataka/ Shturm guided missiles."
Therefore resembling either the Polish Sokol or the UK Lynx3 in its loadout. Probably the best solution as its doctrinally equipped with SHORAD missiles. Outfitted likely with Shturm rather than the Ataka variant of the complex, as USSR already contains plenty of powerful AT helicopters. 4x Igla & 40x S-8 for 75 points or 8x Igla & 4x Shturm for around 100+ points makes sense.
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Mi-8MTV with R-60 or Igla-V pack. Least favorite option. Already overused but fits in the timeframe. Not a proto as well although harder to explain its AA loadout than the previously mentioned candidates.
Development of missiles was completed in 1983, it is possible to use helicopters Mi-24V (Ми-24В), Mi-24VP (Ми-24ВП), Mi-24VM (1998) (Ми-24ВМ), Mi-35m2 (Ми-35m2) and Mi-35m3 (Ми = 35m3) and Mi-8MTV (Ми-8МТВ) / Mi-17MD (Ми-17МД).
[/quote]
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Last edited by orcbuster on Mon 21 Apr 2014 12:36, edited 6 times in total.
Reason: changed title

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Re: The ONE Soviet unit needed/asked for any DLC- AA Helis

Postby MILINTarctrooper » Sat 12 Apr 2014 05:54

Yes the OP has a point...also DDR [East Germany is having some serious air assault issues.]

So Soviet Union and DDR both with some serious helicopter forces available can not mount air assaults in the face of cheaper and more numerous anti-air helicopters on Bluefor side. of equation.
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Re: The ONE Soviet unit needed/asked for any DLC- AA Helis

Postby icehawk308 » Sat 12 Apr 2014 17:40

MILINTarctrooper wrote:Yes the OP has a point...also DDR [East Germany is having some serious air assault issues.]

So Soviet Union and DDR both with some serious helicopter forces available can not mount air assaults in the face of cheaper and more numerous anti-air helicopters on Bluefor side. of equation.


At least the DDR can pair up with Poland and have access to 3 a2a chopper choices at a pretty good price :idea: Hence the Coalition access to anti-heli forces.

Soviet Union has no such recourse. Hence this proposal;

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Re: The ONE Soviet unit needed/asked for any DLC- AA Helis

Postby another505 » Sat 12 Apr 2014 17:52

yup, need it

about madmat quote, is not just airborne deck

but general air assault without specialization
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Re: The ONE Soviet unit needed/asked for any DLC- AA Helis

Postby Kolovrat » Sat 12 Apr 2014 17:56

I've just thought of starting exactly the same topic with the same illustrations.

Mi-24 with R-60s is a must have imminent unit. Mi-8 with iglas is also welcome. For now PACT deck has nothing that can counter mass helidrop.

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Re: The ONE Soviet unit needed/asked for any DLC- AA Helis

Postby Fluffy » Sat 12 Apr 2014 19:20

It's obvious that USSR needs at least one cheap AA helicopter. I mean USSR, not Eastern Block with Sokols.

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Re: The ONE Soviet unit needed/asked for any DLC- AA Helis

Postby v-snejok » Sat 12 Apr 2014 20:19

Yep, I agree. Ussr need at least 1 cheap aa heli.

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Re: The ONE Soviet unit needed/asked for any DLC- AA Helis

Postby Elianor » Sat 12 Apr 2014 22:41

+1 realy need it

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Re: The ONE Soviet unit needed/asked for any DLC- AA Helis

Postby Avlion » Sun 13 Apr 2014 09:09

I totally agree.
The absence of such helicopters stops from aggressive tactics for the USSR at the beginning of the game and thus reduces the number of possible tactics. While NATO players may have strong combinations at the start. Cheap anti-air helicopters would help the Soviet Union as the most powerful nation of the PACT.

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Re: The ONE Soviet unit needed/asked for any DLC- AA Helis

Postby Shade » Sun 13 Apr 2014 11:25

Soviets has no reservistes and no AA hely. Thats wrong.
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