Tank availability tiers

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jonas165
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Re: Tank availability tiers

Postby jonas165 » Sun 20 Apr 2014 17:21

Sevatar wrote:With the adjustment you could have (just tossing numbers around) 2 Cards of 8 T90s. This would help NK a lot if proper adjusted with the other nations.


..and take the game it´s last bit of realism. I am usually more of a gamer then a historican, but sorry, a whole squadron of a Svoiet prototype tank for NORTH KOREA; which they never operated until today is just bull****.

This is what I ment in my post before. The game can´t be balanced and realistic at the same time. Balance > Realism, but I can live without my second card of Leo2A4s when NK doesnt get more unicorns (and can be played without them!).
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Re: Tank availability tiers

Postby Sevatar » Sun 20 Apr 2014 17:21

@Sevatar-2nd-Last-Post: So... you don't want a realistically game? But I think this was your main argument? That the tanks were upgraded in 2nd and 3rd-Line...
Why not bringing in Russian-Bear-Cavalry? Maybe this would help USSR Cat-C to compete with M1A2 and co. ... same argument!


Hey cool why not implement Roman Legions, a bit outdated but their pilums are pretty deadly and for Close combat they have their Gladius also badass.
......same argument

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Re: Tank availability tiers

Postby Thonar » Sun 20 Apr 2014 17:28

Sevatar wrote:This doesnt apply to this game BECAUSE i can choose from newer Equipment, where is in real live the T90 from NK. Ist not like Saddam could choose what tanks he will deploy, he bought and produced what he could get.
With the adjustment you could have (just tossing numbers around) 2 Cards of 8 T90s. This would help NK a lot if proper adjusted with the other nations.


Sevatar wrote:Joke aside, if i classify the tank availability after Eras you would solve a lot of Balance Problems, would be more authentic, would lead to more games within their category and pull the Cat C deck out of the spam Corner.


Sevatar, your whole idea is based around the premise that the current game doesn't take the evolution of tanks and the technology gap into account.
But in fact it does by giving older models a higher availability.

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Re: Tank availability tiers

Postby feeblezak » Sun 20 Apr 2014 17:32

Sevatar wrote:
@Sevatar-2nd-Last-Post: So... you don't want a realistically game? But I think this was your main argument? That the tanks were upgraded in 2nd and 3rd-Line...
Why not bringing in Russian-Bear-Cavalry? Maybe this would help USSR Cat-C to compete with M1A2 and co. ... same argument!


Hey cool why not implement Roman Legions, a bit outdated but their pilums are pretty deadly and for Close combat they have their Gladius also badass.
......same argument


Except its not. You're just being ridiculous.

The T-55 was in front line service with NSWP, North Korea and about 50 other countries during the time period, and constituted a large portion of Soviet Tank units.
Give the MiG-19PFM its 5600m Missile back!!
If Someone could tell the drivers of the T-72M1M's and T-72B's to close their hatches, cheers.

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Re: Tank availability tiers

Postby Sevatar » Sun 20 Apr 2014 17:36

Sevatar, your whole idea is based around the premise that the current game doesn't take the evolution of tanks and the technology gap into account.
But in fact it does by giving older models a higher availability.


OMG the older Versions of Tanks are decreasing as time goes by. Why? Because (seriously the last time) they get upgraded or replaced by newer designs. The Tank is still the same but got upgraded so the vanilla tank is no more.
If i have 250 Leopard 2 and upgrade 250 of them to Leopard 2A1, how many Leopard 2 do i have left? Make an educated guess.

Except its not. You're just being ridiculous.

The T-55 was in front line service with NSWP, North Korea and about 50 other countries during the time period, and constituted a large portion of Soviet Tank units.


Just see above, ist getting old.

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schwarzkopf
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Re: Tank availability tiers

Postby schwarzkopf » Sun 20 Apr 2014 17:39

Thonar wrote:Sevatar, your whole idea is based around the premise that the current game doesn't take the evolution of tanks and the technology gap into account.
But in fact it does by giving older models a higher availability.


You are missing the whole premise. The tank meta would be better if you get more tanks in that era considering all the outlying factors. In a CAT A universe you want more new gen tanks because your opponent has new gen missiles and infantry and everything.

For instance, if I'm playing a CAT A US Armor Deck I don't need 64 M60s at my disposal. I need more Abrams. In Cat B sure I'd love to have a lot of M60's. Understand?
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Re: Tank availability tiers

Postby Thonar » Sun 20 Apr 2014 17:43

Sevatar wrote:
Sevatar, your whole idea is based around the premise that the current game doesn't take the evolution of tanks and the technology gap into account.
But in fact it does by giving older models a higher availability.


OMG the older Versions of Tanks are decreasing as time goes by. Why? Because (seriously the last time) they get upgraded or replaced by newer designs. The Tank is still the same but got upgraded so the vanilla tank is no more.
If i have 250 Leopard 2 and upgrade 250 of them to Leopard 2A1, how many Leopard 2 do i have left? Make an educated guess.


Make an educated guess how far away you are from my actual point...

Due to the fact that older tanks are having a higher availability, it balances the technology-gap out ingame and makes Cat-C able to compete with Cat-A.

Would you change your initial suggestion, that the availability bonus is still the same on Cat-C, while Cat-A loses the option in using Cat-C tanks, it would be fine.
But unfortunately you wanted to reduce the availability within Cat-C leading to an unbalance and divide between the single ERA's.

Still, you are not solving the basic point-balance-problem.

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Re: Tank availability tiers

Postby theBLUBinYou » Sun 20 Apr 2014 17:48

Thonar wrote:Sevatar, your whole idea is based around the premise that the current game doesn't take the evolution of tanks and the technology gap into account.
But in fact it does by giving older models a higher availability.

Well...e.g. in 1990 the Bundeswehr had more Leopard 2A4 than Leopard 2A1. But If you're playing a Cat A-Deck you have more Leopard 2A1. And this is bull...
So no, the evolution is not represented.
schwarzkopf wrote:You are missing the whole premise. The tank meta would be better if you get more tanks in that era considering all the outlying factors. In a CAT A universe you want more new gen tanks because your opponent has new gen missiles and infantry and everything.
For instance, if I'm playing a CAT A US Armor Deck I don't need 64 M60s at my disposal. I need more Abrams. In Cat B sure I'd love to have a lot of M60's.

This.
schwarzkopf wrote: Understand?

I don't think so :lol:

Thonar wrote:Due to the fact that older tanks are having a higher availability, it balances the technology-gap out ingame and makes Cat-C able to compete with Cat-A.

:shock: What? A Cat-A deck should be superior to a Cat C-Deck. Not the other way round. Maybe due to superior tactics a Cat C player will win but due to the availability boost it is a) a Spamfest and b) just senseless.

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Re: Tank availability tiers

Postby Sevatar » Sun 20 Apr 2014 17:49

Yes, then go on and try to make an M48 competitive with an T 72BU and have fun.
Adjusting Era wise would Balance this more as spaming. by the way i didnt say you have the same numbers of tanks per card in Cat A like in Cat C but MORE as now.
Still you would have as Cat C Spammer because the tanks cost still the same so you could field more (as i suggested, if you had read carefully my Posts) by more Activation Points.

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Re: Tank availability tiers

Postby panzersaurkrautwefer » Sun 20 Apr 2014 17:52

Sevatar, your whole idea is based around the premise that the current game doesn't take the evolution of tanks and the technology gap into account.
But in fact it does by giving older models a higher availability.


But that's all sorts of screwy. In 1991 you're going to have a harder time finding an M60/M1 than an M1A1+ in the US inventory. The legions of T-34s for the not-DPRK users are only possible if you took them off of display stands and out of museums. Indeed, by the time of mid to late CAT-B to CAT-A Leo 2A1s and M1IPs are going back to the factory and coming back as Leo 2A4s and M1A1/M1A1HAs.

Older doesn't mean there's more available, or else we'd be able to get 1.5 million Shermans in a deck. The evolution of tanks involves the obsolesces, extinction/retirement of earlier tank designs, and new designs becoming standard. This is distinctly at odds with making all units worthwhile, but a gamemode that uses "authentic" decks would work well in terms of giving people who want clashes of titans, the late Cold War reality of M1A1HAs, T80Us, and Leo 2A4s in some sort of gotterdammerung fight to the finish, while not forcing people who are in love with the T-72M to face down dozens of late model tanks. Unless they like getting annihilated.

Addendum:

We'd have to be careful when excluding CAT-C/B from later tier games. Some countries held onto their older stuff for fairly long (like both the Chaparral and PIVADs both lingered well into the mid 90's despite being totally outdated). Having an "exit" date independent of the availability date is pretty much essential.
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