Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are broken)

ShanRevan
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Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are broken)

Postby ShanRevan » Sat 19 Apr 2014 20:10

Sorry, there's a lot of numbers here but I'm demonstrating a point. Now let's start with reserve units.

As a general rule of thumb, line infantry put out approximately twice the DPS of reservists. In exchange resrvists get 1.5x the hitpoints and cost half as much. Upon the surface of things that sounds pretty reasonable, but I'm about to explain where that falls apart.

Reservists have four flavours of main weapons: Assault rifles, battle rifles, SMGs and semi-auto/bolt action rifles.

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Perhaps surprising to some, but Semi-Auto/Bolt actions put out the best DPS for a static defence (ie in a building). More surprising is how poorly Assault rifles fair, being worst at static defence, and very underwhelming on the move, there's not much appeal to these guys. Battle rifle's technically perform second best in a static defence, but not significanttly more than SMGs. SMG's perform extremely well both on the move and emplaced.


So let's get some perspective on that. I don't have a fancy picture for you, so I'm just going to type these out, but if you want, you can see many more details at a certain spreadsheet I've been helping to make.

So let's look at some Line infantry rifles for comparison. All of these will be static and rookie.

Ak-74: 0.08 HE/s
G3A2: 0.08 HE/s
L1A1 SLR: 0.08HE/s
L85: 0.08 HE/s
Austeyry 0.08 HE/s

Seeing a trend here? Yeah it keeps going that way. The interesting thing to note is that whenver a line unit actually gets an upgraded rifle, it's averages out to be a cosmetic change. Often firing faster/more frequently but less likely to hit. So as you can see, bolt actions put out very similar DPS to most line rifles. Fortunately line infantry always get machineguns! lets take a quick look at MG's that line riflemen get. There's really only a handleful of MG DPS types,

L.MG3:0.12 CQC
Minimi:0.12 CQC
Stoner: 0.11
L86: 0.10
MG3: 0.09
RPK-74: 0.08
L7A1:0.08
AA-52: 0.07 CQC
M60 "shorty": 0.05 CQC
PKM: 0.05
M60(E3): 0.04 (cqc)
Bren L4: 0.03 CQC

There's a bunch of minor range differences and such but you get the idea. For those blessed with a good MG, the damage output is dramatically increased. If on the other hand you're stuck with an M60, Bren or PKM, (or local spin off), all of which are very common then they add very little value at all.



As we can see, reservists get extra hitpoints in exchange for no machinegun.... generally. But what happens when they do get a machine gun....It just so happens that such a combinations exists such as the swedish Hemvarnsman. Featuring both Mauser m/96 bolt action rifles and the local version of the M1918 BAR, the Kg M/37.

Hemvarnsman (rookie):
Mauser: 0.075 HE/s
KG m/37: .101 HE/S
TOTAL: 0.176 HE/s

That seems like a lot, and it turns out it is, but how does it compare with other line infantry? (all rookie)


US Riflemen:
M16: 0.08
M60: 0.04
Total: 0.12

USSR Motostrelki:
AK74: 0.08
PKM: 0.05
Total: 0.13

Fusiliers:
L1A1 SLR: 0.08
L7A1: 0.08
Total: 0.16


Uhh.... That's not looking very good now is it? Swedish reservists perform better at max range than some of the most iconic line infantry in the game? Even the ones without terribly bad MGs? But it gets worse.


Hemvarnsman (rookie):
Mauser: 0.075 HE/s
KG m/37: .101 HE/S



US Riflemen (Elite):
M16: 0.106
M60: 0.053
Total: 0.159

USSR Motostrelki (Elite):
AK74: 0.106
PKM: 0.066
Total: 0.172


Elite line infantry are outperformed by swedish reservists who cast half as much and half 1.5x the health. That's how bad it can be. US rifleman in humvee's cost 20pts. For that same 20pts, you can have 2 squads of reservists. In the case of the Hemvarnsmen that would mean for the same price you would get 2.9 times the dps and 3x the health

1x rifleman @ 0.12 HE/s, 10 HP
2x Hemvarnsmen @ 0.35HE/s and 30HP

Even in non-absurd cases it's silly. Let's consider 20pts of Heimatshutzen.


1x rifleman @ 0.12 HE/s, 10 HP
2x Heimatshutzen @ 0.114 HE/s, 30HP

So even using the worst reservist weapons, for the same price, you get almost the same DPS, and have 3x the hitpoints. No wonder they're so damn cost effective!



In conclusion:

As we can see, the reservists with machine guns probably need a close looking at, and their MG's toned down just a little bit (even though I really love those Hemvarnsmans), but on a greater scale, Machineguns need to be normalised to a greater degree. This problem doesn't just ruin many line infantry, and make reservists too good, but it is also a major part of the reason why for example Delta Force is so maligned.



TL;DR:
Some machine guns are good. Some machine guns are bad. Really bad. These bad machineguns are a large part of the reason why reservists are so good, and why some infantry and special forces perform so much better than others.

Also reservists with machineguns are hilariously broken.


Suggestions:
1. Tone down Reservist machinegun DPS, I would suggest around 0.04 to 0.06 HE/s. This would still make them noticably more powerful than reservists without them, but not to the point of overwhelming line infantry.

2. Machine guns should be massively compressed, elevating the underperfoming ones. I would recommend no MG should provide less than 0.8 HE/s.



*All numbers are calculated from data taken from game files.
*Numbers may be subject to the laws of doing math at 4am but looks right.
*Apologies if this is a bit rambling, it's 4AM on Easter sunday and I have no idea why I just spent most of the night researching/writing this up.
*Data was taken from slightly old files but according to patchnotes nothing should have changed for these values that I can see.


For anyone interested in more data like this, I've already linked our working spreadsheet above, but here's the dedicated thread for it:
viewtopic.php?f=155&t=42234
Last edited by ShanRevan on Sat 19 Apr 2014 20:27, edited 2 times in total.

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DoktorvonWer
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Re: Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are bro

Postby DoktorvonWer » Sat 19 Apr 2014 20:13

Great post.
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Mitchverr
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Re: Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are bro

Postby Mitchverr » Sat 19 Apr 2014 20:18

MG3 is often CQC isnt it? Not posted there same for the RPK.

Also range is a serious issue, i wouldnt leave it out, it can mean alot (eg those PKM armed troops "can" beat fusiliers at 770m armed with L86s)


Good post, but i would recommend range acc scaling to be a big thing looked at.
Last edited by Mitchverr on Sat 19 Apr 2014 20:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are bro

Postby ShanRevan » Sat 19 Apr 2014 20:20

Mitchverr wrote:MG3 is often CQC isnt it? Not posted there.

Thats the L.MG3 at the top of the pack. It's basically one of, if not the outright best machinegun in the game. I don't think any line infantry actually got it, defaulting down to the non-CQC MG3, which is also a really good MG itself. German infantry basically gets propelled to the top of the DPS charts on the basis of its machineguns.

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Uncle_Joe
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Re: Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are bro

Postby Uncle_Joe » Sat 19 Apr 2014 20:27

Aren't there morale adjustments for various Quality infantry though?

Wouldn't the Rookie/Reservists go to 'Worried'/'Shaken'/'Panicked' earlier and thus lose RoF (and therefore lower DPS)?

I remember that was supposed to be the case even in ALB but I'm not sure if it ever really worked out they way that it should.

In any case, yeah, I definitely see too many 'reserve' infantry units being used as front line 'shock troops' which is a bit silly...
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ShanRevan
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Re: Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are bro

Postby ShanRevan » Sat 19 Apr 2014 20:31

Uncle_Joe wrote:Aren't there morale adjustments for various Quality infantry though?

Wouldn't the Rookie/Reservists go to 'Worried'/'Shaken'/'Panicked' earlier and thus lose RoF (and therefore lower DPS)?

I remember that was supposed to be the case even in ALB but I'm not sure if it ever really worked out they way that it should.

In any case, yeah, I definitely see too many 'reserve' infantry units being used as front line 'shock troops' which is a bit silly...



This is true, but I've done the comparisons at the same vet levels to equalise that, and it's somewhat mitigated by the much higher HP pool. Based on morale loss I would probably expect Elite line infantry to win out against 2xreservists, generally. However you don't really get Elite line infantry very often and the morale bonuses aren't very significant for the levels you do take line infantry at generally.


We understand the effects of morale states quite well, unfortunately we don't know how they are calculated so we can't really determine who will reach critical morale (First to shaken generally loses a fight, at least for tanks) first. At least not without individual empirical testing of the match ups and some guess work.

If any Eugen employee feels like explaining the inner workings of morale states, accuracy scaling with range, or visibility systems, I would be very excited to hear about it and would put it to good use.
Last edited by ShanRevan on Sat 19 Apr 2014 20:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are bro

Postby ExeTick » Sat 19 Apr 2014 20:34

Remember that elite infantry get some kind of bonus that you do not see. (if I remember it correctly)
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ShanRevan
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Re: Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are bro

Postby ShanRevan » Sat 19 Apr 2014 20:41

ExeTick wrote:Remember that elite infantry get some kind of bonus that you do not see. (if I remember it correctly)

Sorta not really. There's two kinds of elite infantry to get confused about. Elite veterency units, which mostly get bonuses to accuracy and morale recharg/resistance. And "elite" infantry as in special forces.

Each rifle comes in several version for line, Shock and Elite/Special Forces use.

AK-74(u) (Elite special forces):0.35HE/s
AK-74 (Shock infantry): 0.16HE/s
AK-74 (line infantry): 0.08HE/s

This is separate from veterancy. ALso it's not really hidden since the weapon stats will change on the unit card. Also these values are pretty much the same for each nations versions, with a few exceptions like the G11.

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Re: Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are bro

Postby Tiera » Sat 19 Apr 2014 20:44

Good, well detailed post.
The way the DPS of most common MGs scales is really far from optimal from a gameplay point of view.
I have no problem with Minimi being the top dog MG - but PKM and M60 should definitively be rated higher.
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Re: Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are bro

Postby Mitchverr » Sat 19 Apr 2014 20:45

Tiera wrote:Good, well detailed post.
The way the DPS of most common MGs scales is really far from optimal from a gameplay point of view.
I have no problem with Minimi being the top dog MG - but PKM and M60 should definitively be rated higher.



Range, look at the range, the range is important, very much so.
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