Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are broken)

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RedDevilCG
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Re: Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are bro

Postby RedDevilCG » Sat 19 Apr 2014 20:48

I think the best way to test this is to find someone who has an hour to spare, and just do some deathmatches between reserves and infantry. Real world results take into account all the weird morale effects and other hidden values.

Also you didn't normalize the MG damage based on range. The accuracy of the higher ranged MGs will be higher once the lower ranged MGs get close enough to start firing. This gives free shots and morale damage to the higher ranged ones before the shorter ranged ones can start firing.

[edited for clarity]
Last edited by RedDevilCG on Sat 19 Apr 2014 20:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Mitchverr
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Re: Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are bro

Postby Mitchverr » Sat 19 Apr 2014 20:49

RedDevilCG wrote:I think the best way to test this is to find someone who has an hour to spare, and just do some deathmatches between reserves and infantry. Real world results take into account all the weird morale effects and other hidden values.

Also you didn't normalize the MG range based on range. The accuracy of the higher ranged MGs will be higher once the lower ranged MGs get close enough to start firing. This gives free shots and morale damage to the higher ranged ones before the shorter ranged ones can start firing.



Me and Tirak are going to, hopefully, do this tonight, his pet rats running at 115% efficiency to get his game running :lol:
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Re: Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are bro

Postby RedDevilCG » Sat 19 Apr 2014 20:55

Nice! I'll be looking forward to the results. Can't imagine it will take a short time to complete though. There are so many different styles to attacking.

ie: attack move at each other, have both move to close range, have one stand stationary and the SMG/AR equipped troop move in close, etc etc.
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Re: Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are bro

Postby ShanRevan » Sat 19 Apr 2014 20:58

Range really is not a big factor at all. Doing 0.05HE/s out a couple hundred metres further is extremely negligible to both morale and hitpoints. It should in theory give it a higher acc bonus from range scaling up close, however I believe this will mostly be cancelled out by generally having lower base acc. Remember that scaling should be applied equally to each of them, they just have different starting points. That makes them parallel lines, preserving their relative distances between each other.

Also if it magically wasn't equally applied to each squad, I'm pretty skeptical it will make up for the frankly abysmal damage that some of these MG's do.


If anyone wants to do some empirical testing then I would welcome that. Be careful to eliminate as many variables as possible.

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Re: Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are bro

Postby xthetenth » Sat 19 Apr 2014 21:12

ShanRevan wrote:Range really is not a big factor at all. Doing 0.05HE/s out a couple hundred metres further is extremely negligible to both morale and hitpoints. It should in theory give it a higher acc bonus from range scaling up close, however I believe this will mostly be cancelled out by generally having lower base acc. Remember that scaling should be applied equally to each of them, they just have different starting points. That makes them parallel lines, preserving their relative distances between each other.

Also if it magically wasn't equally applied to each squad, I'm pretty skeptical it will make up for the frankly abysmal damage that some of these MG's do.


If anyone wants to do some empirical testing then I would welcome that. Be careful to eliminate as many variables as possible.


Bet I win if I charge FSJs at delta over open ground with only the MGs for both sides on. For that matter why do the Deltas have the M60s now?
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Re: Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are bro

Postby PzAz04Maus » Sat 19 Apr 2014 21:15

Mitchverr wrote:Range, look at the range, the range is important, very much so.

Conditionally. After a certain point, they get engaged, and what you cannot outshoot, you cannot hold down.

This situation becomes worse when a cost equivalent of basic line infantry plus transport faces off against an equivalent of reservists. If you bought the basic option, that usually turns out to be a squad and an MG with maybe a point of armor for 20 points against 2 large squads and 2 MGs. If you ever so dare to get a more versatile vehicle, the transaction goes to 1 infantry and 20 points for 1 extra MG, or 1 unit and 30 points of autocannon against 3 sections and 3 MGs or 4 sections and 4 MGs respectively. You may as well just have the autocannon run away, because there's no way it's going to get in range quick enough to stop enemy wheeled transports to getting to the destination first OR chew through 60 men quick enough to give his single dismount time to return fire.

Even in the 2v1 scenario, there's not enough time for any 200 meter bonus to damage morale significantly enough to impair half the enemy force, while he will impair all of yours when he gets in range.

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Re: Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are bro

Postby ShanRevan » Sat 19 Apr 2014 21:16

xthetenth wrote:
ShanRevan wrote:Range really is not a big factor at all. Doing 0.05HE/s out a couple hundred metres further is extremely negligible to both morale and hitpoints. It should in theory give it a higher acc bonus from range scaling up close, however I believe this will mostly be cancelled out by generally having lower base acc. Remember that scaling should be applied equally to each of them, they just have different starting points. That makes them parallel lines, preserving their relative distances between each other.

Also if it magically wasn't equally applied to each squad, I'm pretty skeptical it will make up for the frankly abysmal damage that some of these MG's do.


If anyone wants to do some empirical testing then I would welcome that. Be careful to eliminate as many variables as possible.


Bet I win if I charge FSJs at delta over open ground with only the MGs for both sides on. For that matter why do the Deltas have the M60s now?

Considering the LMG3 they have is one of the best MG's in the game I'm inclined to agree that they would win. As for deltas the explanation I keep hearing is that they're meant to be for early-era decks or something. I don't know, but at least making their machine guns non-sucky would make up most of the deficiency.


e: The range becomes important if you the enemy decides to sit just outside of their range and do nothing about it (or at least for a significant time). It may be agonising and slow but you will definitely win if they're not shooting back.
Last edited by ShanRevan on Sat 19 Apr 2014 21:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are bro

Postby Mazz » Sat 19 Apr 2014 21:17

The difference between 980m and 770m is what, 5% at best? After that, they will scale the same. The range is not making up for the accuracy by any means given it's 10%+, and that's visible both in game and in the math.

Also, infantry almost never have an open ground fight in a way that the extra 100m will matter significantly. If someone is walking infantry to an objective, its either with smoke support and/or to pull targets for supporting guns, like medium tanks behind the infantry.

Structure to structure they teleport to the closest available shooting position, and in woods LoS is limited to 350m.

So, for 95% of the times infantry are actually shooting at each other, having 100m more range is actually more crippling to overall performance then anything else.
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Re: Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are bro

Postby Mako » Sat 19 Apr 2014 21:22

Haemsvarnsmens are 10 pts, not 5 and Swedish.
If there's two kinds of players, those that like challenges and those that want a fair game, pubstomps should make everyone happy.

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Re: Why Reservists are great and Deltas aren't (MG's are bro

Postby Mitchverr » Sat 19 Apr 2014 21:28

Well, after a little testing, most of this was shown to be pretty accurate, although its not "as extreme" as it looks in some ways, some of it was meh, but overall it did seem ok, as for the reservists, eh, to me it looked more like random dice rolling determine things, though their only strength, HP, being the decider if it was close enough.

Also, Diggers 90 op as hell, that is all.

also, some ammo issues exist in the MGs.
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