Yugoslavia in Red Dragon

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hansbroger
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Re: [Non-included nation] YUGOSLAVIA

Postby hansbroger » Sun 4 May 2014 22:46

praslovan wrote:
hansbroger wrote:They had OSA's too and some great artillery if I remember, not a ton of it mechanized though.

Sceptical about OSAs I know however that we had licence for Strela 2 AND Igla manpads and that they were in mass production at home.

Regarding arty... M7 Priests :D , Gvozdika and some IFV mortar types. And Nora B... 1st TGM ever. Designed well in the time frame and would be in service with JNA if things wouldn't go downhill as they went.

BTW I don't know what Nora means in Serbian but in our language means crazy woman. :roll:

Regarding other old ww2 stuff... SU100, T34, M36 and 18... and probably some more. :lol:


Yeah I was wrong on the OSA's, I was skimming and upon re inspection it seems they had OSA class patrol boats not 9k33's. That being said, SA-2, SA-3, SA-6, SA-7, SA-9, SA-13, SA-14 and SA-16 all seem to be in the Yugoslav inventory in time for use against NATO.
Check out the film Kelly's heroes for a great classic film as well as a look at all the US WWII surplus Tito got his hands on, the film was filmed in Yugoslavia using Yugoslav army equipment!
http://www.foia.cia.gov/sites/default/f ... -03-01.pdf
http://www.defense.gov/specials/kosovo/
http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pu ... 65.ch3.pdf
http://books.google.com/books?id=hYzo_T ... ce&f=false
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/news/article ... t/hnlhlxel
I don't have actual Yugo inventory doc's which prove they operated the systems but all of these sources seem to think they did.
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Re: [Non-included nation] YUGOSLAVIA

Postby hansbroger » Mon 5 May 2014 01:15

Some Uniquely Yugoslav units/those I didn't know they had. These guys could go a long way towards filling out their own deck without much soviet equipment. If anyone has sources or names/anything on SP mortar systems I would love to see them! Surprised I haven't been able to find some sort of truck or jeep mounted TITO mountain gun yet :(

Yugoslav Artillery Units:
FROG-7 (something like 40 launchers at some point, later repurposed into M-87 launchers by Serbia)
Yugoslavia used one ISU-152 which was left behind by the Soviets.
M7 105mm Howitzer (MOAR SHERMAN!!!!!)
2S1 Gvodzika was used by Yugoslavia
Nora B-52 SP 152mm/155mm howitzer developed in 1984 (some of the pic's may be on OOTF chassis) FAP 2832 being original chassis then Kamaz and finally something armored an DANA like from who knows when.
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(Later upgraded at some point with armored cab)
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M63 Plamen MLRS: in service 1963, 32 128mm rockets (Plamen A/B) as well as 32 more on the launcher for total of 64 (1 loaded 1 reload). 8,600m range.
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M-77 Oganj (YMRL-32) 32 M77/M92 128mm rockets (different than Plamen), development ~1968 first revealed 1975, FAP 2026 Chassis 20,000m range.
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M-87 Orkan introduced in 1987, 12 262mm M-87 rockets he 50km frag 67km cargo 50 km, FAP 2832 Chassis (Serbia made a 4 tube launcher on the Zil-135 Chasis)
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M-60 PB based 82mm Mortar carrier (still looking for pictures)
BIV bases 120mm KROM mortar carrier (BOV/BIV 4x4 wheeled apc chassis) Could really use help finding out more about this, it is like a flat topped BOV with some sort of 120mm mortar, english language doesn't get any hits for BIV or KROM mortar, found it in 13-9 of http://books.google.com/books?id=-na9Xd ... er&f=false
BM-21 was used as well but with M-77 there is no need for it.
Yugoslav Anti Aircraft Artillery Units (excluding soviet systems which have already been mentioned in previous posts):
I see claims that they operated the PRAGA but with the BOV series this will be unecessary unless the BOV-3 is made into a FSV a role which it aquitted itself well in the Yugoslav wars
BOV-3 BOV apc with 3 M554B1 20mm cannon (poor man's Shilka) No radar guidance
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BOV-30: BOV-3 upgrade with new turret and 2 30mm cannon no radar guidance
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HS M09 BOV-3 "Prototype" Triple 20mm and 8 strela 2 on the BOV-3 apc chassis (enough to make NK jealous!) A poor man's STROP II
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Misc Vehicles:
BOV-1: AT variant of BOV APC also known as POL M-83 (6 AT-3 = Poor man's BRDM-2 Malyutka, could probably throw in an AT-4 upgrade as a prototype seeing as it was in the inventory as well as the AT-5 and some used on vehicles)
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BOV-3 was used as an FSV as well, wheeled afghanski with poorer range.
M18 Hellcat 76mm
M36 Jackson 90mm
Su-76 76mm
Su-100
ASU-85

Misc Infantry:
I have found an image of a YPA AT team but have no idea what they are using.... any thoughts? M79 OSA is my thought 400mm RHA?
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BOV APC:
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Misc tanks
Sherman M4
T34-85
M47 patton (at least 400)

http://www.vti.mod.gov.rs/ntp/rad2013/2-13/0/0.pdf
https://archive.org/stream/yugoslavallp ... z_djvu.txt
http://books.google.com/books?id=gJu9Hh ... ry&f=false
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Re: [Non-included nation] YUGOSLAVIA

Postby Firestarter » Mon 5 May 2014 01:56

Make it happen Eugen!
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Re: [Non-included nation] YUGOSLAVIA

Postby Zomba69 » Mon 5 May 2014 14:53

Hi guys and greetings from ex Yugoslavia

I think it would be great to have JNA (Yugoslav People's Army) in Wargame. Yugoslavia claimed in 80s to be 3rd military power in the Europe, but what is more interesting JNA combained NATO and PACT equipment (after Tito and Stalin had cooled down relations, JNA got lot of equipment from West and after Stalin's death, they continued to import from PACT). It also had huge domestic military industry.

JNA deck could give us opportunity to mix some of NATO and PACT equipment (as long as it is realistic). JNA had USA tank destroyers and artillery pieces (including 203 mm howitzer). There was also interesting combinations - MIG21 equipped with Maverick (it was used a lot during fights in 90s). Than, one of the rocket ships have been equipped with RBS anti ship missiles (the ship was capture by Croatians and rockets have been later installed on the trucks)!

Domestic industry produced a lot of equipment, some was really lousy, but some unique and quite good.

Naval: navy had huge fleet adopted to the coast with lot of islands and bays as well as fair river forces. Besides PACT equipment, Yugoslavia produced own frigate, patrol, missile and gunboats (even submarines).

Air: besides variations of MIG 21 and MIG 29, there were lot of "home - made" planes - fighters, support and training planes (there was no any SU planes!). However, those force showed very week and most of the Yugoslav plane were easy catch for Strela or AA guns (incl Bofors!). Moreover, during the NATO operations, 1 F-16 managed to take down 5 Yugoslavian Super Galeb fighters. However, it would be great to see those planes. When they were used in large amounts they could make serious problems to ground forces without AA. No Mi -24, but there were Gazella and Bell. There was prototype Novi Avion, but I think it never get to first flight...

Air - defence: KUB was the best JNA had (there was no Osa, just Igla and Strela for infantry and lot of AA guns incl Praga and Bofors). KUBs took down one F - 16 and 2 Mirges over Bosnia in 90s.

Ground force: a lot of staff. M- 84 was Yugoslavian tank based on T- 72, but with lot of improvement, especially in armor and electronics. It was nightmare for AT guns and infantry. All kind of pieces of artillery (incl 203mm famous howitzer - in the 90s they showed to be great against tanks T - 55, 1 hit near the tank could turn it upside down!, so much about being stunned:). Also, large homemade selection of MLRS. They were massively used in 90s, some of them were really terrible (one model could not fire during the rain because rain drops would trigger rocket to explode!), but with large scale attacks it was serious weapons (especially psychological effect). There was ORKAN, long rage MLRS (50 km) - it had 6 cluster rockets each filled with 280 small bombs, it was supposed to used against infantry (half of the bombs explode in the air and second half makes area minefield), but at the end it was used on civilan targets (with same deadly effect).

JNA had a lot of special troops of different kinds, but it is important to notices that besides JNA, Yugoslavia had so called Teritorial Defence. It was total defense concept where every village, town and factory had own formation in the case of war and warehouses full of light weapons but also powerful AT and AA equipment (basically, these sources were largely used by Slovenians and Croats to fight JNA at the end).

Important thing to add: in reality JNA end with 91, officially in 92. Due to war and sanctions not much new equipment was brought in JNA and all pilot projects ended. New countries in the Balkans managed to get all kind of weapons from all around the world (Croatia for examples got several Mi- 24, lot of Western AA and AT, but also Fagot, even S- 300 AA), but I do not thing such changes should be involved, because it was not same army anymore.

Sorry for typing mistakes, I got so excited

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Navy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Air_Force
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Ground_Forces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territoria ... Yugoslavia)

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Re: [Non-included nation] YUGOSLAVIA

Postby jmpveg22 » Mon 5 May 2014 19:55

I hope for a future expansion into the Mediterranean and central Europe... call it: "Wargame Deep Battle" (as we already have ALB). Make the Campaign playable by BOTH sides (by having two sets of scripted events for each side). I'd pay $50 for such an expansion... let alone if it was its own game.

Features:
-A new " Nonaligned Faction " that can fight on any side it chooses (but also weakest and extremely specialized).
-A single Massive dynamic campaign encompassing around 80 (50 Land/marine maps, 30 naval zones) maps across Europe and the Mediterranean. Area is from Dunkirk to Constantinople in east-west range and Sicily to Oslo in north-south range
-New Nations ( Greece, Italy, Turkey, Belgium-Netherlands , Austria-Switzerland, Yugoslavia , Finland, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary)
-New Coalitions
*USSR
*WARSAW PACT CENTRAL (DDR, Czech, Poland)
*WARSAW PACT SOUTH (Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary)

*USA
*COMMONWEALTH (UK, ANZAC, Canada)
*EUROCORP (France, West Germany, Belgium-Netherlands)
*MEDCOM (Greece, Turkey, Italy) would be a tenuous and uneasy relationship

Non Aligned (Austria-Switzerland, Finland, Albania, Yugoslavia)
-Two Solid eras 1980-1986 and 1986-1992. An era must be selected to build a deck and for online play. See below for more details on why.
-A firm Era setting and selection... in which prices and availability of units change (EG: T-80BVs rare and expensive in 1985, but in the 1991 era not as rare and cheaper). Also lower cost obsolete units in later eras come with experience penalty to prevent spam (as you would not put your best men in old units). System Designed to prevent Spam and maintain realism.
-A choice to customize and create your own Dynamic campaign settings, battlegroups, etc... Then be able to share the campaign with others.
-Coalition Based Navies... with at least 5 ships and 3 aircraft per Coalition. Some would naturally have more (USSR, USA).
-Introduction of Non-nuclear Land based anti-ship missiles, and non-nuclear missile Artillery like FROG-7s, OTR-21 Tochka, MGM-52 Lance, and French Pluton to compliment that already present MGM-140 ATACMS. These Missiles are extremely powerful… but also very expensive (minimum cost of 200pts), eat through supply at an incredible rate, and have an insanely slow rate of fire.

Idea for campaign storyline (imagine it being said by the awesome narrator)…


May 4 1980: Tito, long time ruler of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and primary figure of the Non-Aligned Movement (NAM) dies leaving no immediate successor. Yugoslavs and much of the world mourns the death of the great leader.

June 1980 to 1987: A collective revolving leadership emerges to fill the void, however in fighting and disagreements are common within the new collective presidency. This period is noted by ineffectiveness of governance and leadership, as it seems that no one person is able to effectively fill in the former leaders shoes. In this time unrest in Yugoslavia grows.

Late 1987: As the result of years of leadership and economic stagnation, a rise of nationalism and separatism takes root in Yugoslavia. Differing heads of nationalist movements arise.

February 1988: Gorbachev announces its withdrawal from Afghanistan, Sensing weakness and decay in the Soviet threat the Reagan administration begins to look for opportunities to further weaken and cripple the Eastern Bloc.

March 1988: The USA begins financially and politically supporting many nationalist movements in Yugoslavia, primarily ones that have taken an anti-communist tone. This move alarms Gorbachev, who was in actuality planning on revoking the Brezhnev Doctrine in the weeks to come. These events forced him to reconsider his position as he now sees Western meddling within Socialist Nations.

April 1st 1988: In a press conference, Ronald Reagan makes a promise his last efforts as President will be to end Communist Rule in many places across the globe. The next day riots and mass protests erupt across Yugoslavia demanding an end to communist rule, and the independence of many republics in Yugoslavia.

April 4th 1988: The Kremlin seeing no coincidence to the events concludes that American intervention and influence is the primary driver of this outbreak of nationalism in a formally Non-Aligned Communist country. The events convince many in the Eastern Bloc that their own vulnerability to this new American involvement is high and action to contain this new American policy should be taken.

April 8th 1988: The Protests become violent as anti-communist protestors are gunned down by government forces. No one knows who fired first but the death toll stands at 9 police officers and 22 protestors. The White House makes a public statement assuring that Freedom Desiring people across the globe will receive American Support. The Kremlin fails to make a public statement on the incident.

April 15th 1988: Emboldened by the White House's statements and muted Soviet response... Anti-Communist Nationalist Protestors begin storming and taking over police stations, airfields, ports, and government buildings. The proclamation of the "Confederacy of Independent States of Yugoslavia (CISY)" is made by various leaders. They make a public plea for American Support to help them end what they see as an illegitimate and murdering communist government.

The Kremlin sees obvious American Influence and warns that no further interference should be made by the American in what was formally a Non-Aligned Nation. NSWP nations push the USSR for intervention to send a message to their own populations, as well as to the Americans about the cost of meddling in other countries political affairs.

April 17th 1988: Ronald Reagan recognizes the CISYs legitimacy and vows to send American aid to assist them in forming a new non-communist Government. This message is met with harsh Soviet and Eastern Bloc criticism and warnings that any further interference into the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia domestic affairs by the USA or western powers will be countered. The Warsaw Pact mobilizes places its forces on full alert and mobilizes its vast armies as a signal of unity and strength.

April 18th-April 20th 1988: The embattled Yugoslavian Communist government sees the Warsaw Pact reactions, and requests admission into the Warsaw Pact. American Intelligence services intercept the request and relay the message to the White House. To pre-empt Warsaw Pact Action the White House decides to move quickly, Deploying Airborne and Marine Divisions to the Airfields and Ports held by the CISY in an effort to discourage Soviet intervention. NATO begins Full mobilization in preparation for a possible Warsaw Pact response, many of its leaders however are dismayed by the brazen and unilateral actions the Americans are taken.

April 21st 1988: The Warsaw Pact formally accepts the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia request to enter the Warsaw Pact. The Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact make one Final warning to the USA... "Get out of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia within 48 hours, or suffer the dire consequences".

April 23rd 1988: The Americans do not budge... Gorbachev sees no other choice but to give the go ahead for operation "Lenin's Hammer" (in honor of Lenin's recent Birthday) which is a described as a "campaign to safeguard socialism from external threats". Within 24 hours Bulgarian, Hungarian, And Romanian Tank Divisions roll into Yugoslavia to secure vital Airfields. Soviet Airborne Units are deployed to secure the capital Belgrade.

The Americans come under fire from Warsaw Pact forces forcing a state of war. At the same time Warsaw Pact Forces in Central Europe are in full mobilization. WWIII may possibly begin over Yugoslavia...

REDFOR objectives:
1)Expel all American Units from the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia by day 10.
-If #1 is successful: push into Greece and secure Athens by Day 25 to eliminate American Influence in Region. NATO decides to respond with an offensive in Germany though, so you must hold onto Berlin (Both East and West) at all costs as well.
-If #1 is not successful: open up second Front in Central Europe and Reunite Germany by day 25 by capturing Bonn. You must also still expel all NATO troops out of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.


BLUEFOR objectives:
1) Capture Belgrade by day 10
-If #1 Successful: Push into Romania and Albania as anti-communist protests have erupted and require the same Assistance. Capture Tirana and Bucharest by day 25. Also must maintain control of All NATO capitals.
-If #1 unsuccessful: Expel the Warsaw Pact from West Germany. In an effort to open a second front and divide your forces the Warsaw Pact decides to unify Germany. Show them you mean Business by Recapturing West Berlin by Day 25.

___

Prior to Day 10 Forces are made up of:
BLUEFOR:
-CISY Yugoslavian Forces
-USA
-UK (Thatcher and Reagan partnership)

REDFOR:

-USSR
-Romania
-Yugoslav Government Forces
-Bulgaria
-Hungary

After Day 10 forces are made up of:
BLUEFOR:
-USA
-UK
-France
-West Germany
-Italy
-Belgium/Netherlands
-Greece
-Turkey
-Sweden
-Denmark
-Norway

REDFOR:

-USSR
-East Germany
-Czechoslovakia
-Poland
-Romania
-Bulgaria
-Hungary
-Albania (sees campaign to north and decides to join Warsaw Pact for protection)

2 Neutrals factions that player have influence on:
-Acts as a Shortcut on Dynamic Map Austria-Switzerland. Any incursion onto their territory results in Neutral nation siding with opposition.
-Finland can be bought to serve your side by spending a large amount of political points on day 20 (costs less for Warsaw Pact though).

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hansbroger
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Re: [Non-included nation] YUGOSLAVIA

Postby hansbroger » Mon 5 May 2014 21:40

Turkey+Greece = OP :P

Non aligned would work better if India and the United Arab Republic were involved or Israel.
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Re: [Non-included nation] YUGOSLAVIA

Postby Tonci87 » Mon 5 May 2014 23:20

I would really love a Wargame in South Europe, and especially with Yugoslawia in it. It had so many different and unique vehicels and weapons. It is also very unique by beeing the only communist country to actually get weapons that were used by the Nato. There was much trade with Sweden.
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Re: [Non-included nation] YUGOSLAVIA

Postby Woozle » Mon 5 May 2014 23:30

I honestly think this would have been a heck of alot more interesting then the Scandinavian countries.

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Re: [Non-included nation] YUGOSLAVIA

Postby hansbroger » Tue 6 May 2014 07:21

Woozle wrote:I honestly think this would have been a heck of alot more interesting then the Scandinavian countries.


Yeah considering that unlike Norway or Denmark, Yugoslavia can pretty much kit itself out?
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Re: [Non-included nation] YUGOSLAVIA

Postby [EUG]MadMat » Tue 6 May 2014 08:54

hansbroger wrote:
Woozle wrote:I honestly think this would have been a heck of alot more interesting then the Scandinavian countries.


Yeah considering that unlike Norway or Denmark, Yugoslavia can pretty much kit itself out?

Sweden could too, and with no foreign equipment.

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