13 issues compiled from competitive and top player insight

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Re: 13 issues compiled from competitive and top player insig

Postby Misfit » Sat 7 Jun 2014 10:16

Random wrote:
Misfit wrote:
Random wrote:I wouldn`t call those players "top players", but I see your point, some people which do well in competitive games may not be that great at understanding gamemechanic and things like that, but some are and would be able to offer valuable insight for balancing.

Also, when looking at the leaderboard specifically the number of games is something that has to be comsidered, a player may get to the top in 300 games while being not that good, especially with a small playerpool, but a high winratio does mean something, unless they just figured out one playstlye they do well with.



Nothing restricts those top players from coming to forum and share their deep insights with the rest of us, and im quite sure that Eugen would be happily invite them to become marshalls afterwards. But alas, i dont really see much insightfull suggestions coming this way, especialy from those "top players". And this treat is no exception. Its basicaly a summary of what has been disgused by the whole forum community for months already.


search.php?keywords=&terms=all&author=Sleksa&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
search.php?keywords=&terms=all&author=Daywalkerzyx&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
search.php?keywords=&terms=all&author=IIIhunterIII&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Yes, there should be some "top player"-marshalls. And by that I don`t mean whoever is at the top of the leaderboard.


Im not gonna wade through a couple thousand posts, sorry. Maybe you can help me and link a few treats containing complete balance proposals? And i dont mean things like "lmgs are unbalanced, they need to be fixed).
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Re: 13 issues compiled from competitive and top player insig

Postby Random » Sat 7 Jun 2014 10:32

There you go, those two OPs:

viewtopic.php?f=187&t=45595

viewtopic.php?f=155&t=44991

consider the mod as a complete balance proposal.
Last edited by Random on Sat 7 Jun 2014 10:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Ultimaratio
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Re: 13 issues compiled from competitive and top player insig

Postby Ultimaratio » Sat 7 Jun 2014 10:34

I also do not see something really substainel in the OP with my mortal eyes what has not been already disscussed. But maybe Eugen and the Marshalls have not belived us but now they do. However i am glad to hear that the Marshalls (and Eugen) stand their ground although they are not that competitiv or do not bother with ranked games at all. The elite players or any other group in geneal should not dictate how the game should be.
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Re: 13 issues compiled from competitive and top player insig

Postby Spektre » Sat 7 Jun 2014 12:41

I agree also with most what is by the marshals here in this thread...

my points to support randoms post is:

1. for sure its not a guarantee , that if high level player (on paper) are involved into the marshal program
everything is fine. as said first they just ppl who identify op, exploit and abuseable things faster and
are able to integrate into a strategy or tactic vs other high level players. maybe it sounds harsh, but it is like
others are able to see the same things, BUT and now my point, when and which priority they would give a thing like centurians 9 months ago.
it is just that things would go a bit faster at least. aslo there are other things to proof if someone is good or just a forum writer with pimped stats,
tons of casts, sadly only few replays, esl tourneys etc...

2. I can say for me, that when I see some suggested changes in the forum,
after over 2000 hours wargame I can imgane how things would play out, without testing em, just by reading
as I play regular I have that feeling and most ppl here in this thread have that too,
they have it cause they play regular and play every little patch change out.
how many marshals play regular? most of them play other games all the time
and mostly only came out with a dlc or new game or something
I dont think that they still have this feeling Im talkin about, sounds a bit harsh maybe,
when I have clan matches like tourneys etc I play more before,
cause I want to refresh my feeling
WTF?

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Re: 13 issues compiled from competitive and top player insig

Postby Drrty-D » Sat 7 Jun 2014 13:54

Sleksa wrote:
I do not want to belittle but firestarter was the only marshal I saw win games in alb's esl and he seems pretty bummed out by the current state of the game. The vast majority of the other marshals I've never seen in ranked play which makes me doubt there's concrete understanding of what makes certain units and roles stand out from their counterparts as witnessed by the he2 cent proposal. It might sound elitist but to me but I can't foresee people who don't play the game to find the absolute edges from the deck- and unit performances fixing the problems they don't fully comprehend.

Another perspective could also be said, that the marshall land knew exactly what was going on in ALB as well and yet 9 months later I'm still abusing the same corsair-cent-flamer trains, only with a few more obvious additions (kahu, invisible autocannons) which doesn't exactly boost the confidence. either way


Without being an arrogant deee you seem to forget that it was me who was the first Marshy in ESL final.
Me and Ribar lost to Heli all in that was going on these days.I could search the Marshals forum,but _uck it,i warned about the heli rushes possibilitys the first days of W:AB Beta,nothing has been done until the Clash of the clans2 match Eugen Dream Team vs Steel where Shade filtered all his frustrations because of also losing to heli all in rushes in ESL,called Eugen names etc...few days later it was fixed.
I really dont get it people,you really think if we put the currently best players to Marshals something would change?
It s not Firestarter,Zombie,Drrty,Sleksa who makes the changes,remember that before you post the next Marshal trashing threads...
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Re: 13 issues compiled from competitive and top player insig

Postby Doeko » Sat 7 Jun 2014 14:07

I agree with everything in the OP and is nicely concisely worded. Especially the cheap tank meta is annoying but also the other things.

I also like the part about the effectiveness of fixed-wing aircraft. Air should become more powerful. MANPADS should be most effective to ambush choppers and planes that fly over them directly, but not to protect the frontline from bombing runs by placing them next to the unit that is to be bombed (heavier AA units should provide cover from bombers).

Effectively I think it should be possible to bomb MANPADS with no risk by almost any higher level bomber. Their range vs air could be reduced while their accuracy could be increased a little (making them more effective to ambush air but less effective as a static defence unit). The role of air defence of the front line should revolve around radar units and maybe some higher level IR.

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Re: 13 issues compiled from competitive and top player insig

Postby integ3r » Sat 7 Jun 2014 14:12

Just wanted to say that with regards to the marshal system, communication seems too unilateral. Marshals may take things along but they don't give much back without having it forced out like in this thread. Just small stuff like what is currently hot discussion on marshal forum, what threads are hot or what eugen plans in upcomkng patches are. There's little sense in too much secrecy when all it does is lock out useful scrutiny. I understand the want to keep discussions closed, but it's excessive once a decision is made. Last thing we need is only being given this opportunity once a bad decision is already live in a patch.
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Re: 13 issues compiled from competitive and top player insig

Postby Minenfeld! » Sat 7 Jun 2014 15:55

Do you really believe the forum meta is that important ?
It's one and one only of all the different channels of feedback about the game.

Obviously, being a poster here comes with developing a bias about participating in THE place to be to talk about the game. It's not remotely true. Sure, there are a lot of things being discussed here and issues will come up one day or another (but not all and immediately and some might even go under the radar). Which by the way answers to the question : "why do we even have marshals ?". To gather feedback from a lot of different places, among other things.

I could also add to what I said that in this forum a very very territorial and belligerent spirit reigns supreme, along with an overall quite low level of knowledge of the game and you can understand that posting on this forum is not exactly the most important things marshals have in mind. I can only commend MadMat's dedication to read it and comment in it. Doesn't mean it is a useless cesspool either, but it's definitely not the center of the known universe.


I agree with what you say. I'd just like to point out that I was posting in a sarcastic manner, at the expense of the fellow who kept asking Guggy "how often he plays" per week.

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Re: 13 issues compiled from competitive and top player insig

Postby Grosnours » Sat 7 Jun 2014 17:25

integ3r wrote:Just wanted to say that with regards to the marshal system, communication seems too unilateral. Marshals may take things along but they don't give much back without having it forced out like in this thread. Just small stuff like what is currently hot discussion on marshal forum, what threads are hot or what eugen plans in upcomkng patches are. There's little sense in too much secrecy when all it does is lock out useful scrutiny. I understand the want to keep discussions closed, but it's excessive once a decision is made. Last thing we need is only being given this opportunity once a bad decision is already live in a patch.


Rule number 1: by experience, Eugen knows it's a very bad idea to publish patch logs or changes in advance. So never ever count on this happening again, they've been badly burnt for doing it once.

What actually is in the marshal forums can be sorted in several branches :
- it's information about what will evolve in game, coming from Eugen. No way it will be published, cf rule 1.
- it's call for comments and information form Eugen. If they needed that public, they'd do it.
- it's info about a testing version, again no need whatsoever to publish this info.
- it's ideas or comments from marshals, with input from other marshals or Eugen. Some sort of glorified version of the public version of this forum if you want. There's no indication whatsoever that anything discussed here will be implemented, and if there is, see rule 1.

To sum it up, I really don't see what would be gained of having any part of the marshal forum made public, as every interesting bit would fall under rule 1.

Minenfeld! wrote:I agree with what you say. I'd just like to point out that I was posting in a sarcastic manner, at the expense of the fellow who kept asking Guggy "how often he plays" per week.

The pitfalls of written communication. ;)
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Re: 13 issues compiled from competitive and top player insig

Postby Mot » Sat 7 Jun 2014 18:03

Experience and skill doesn't matter when it comes to understanding balance?
Someone been watching too much Japanese anime where 14 year old kids are generals and save the world twice a week. Sorry but this is not how things work in the real world.

Experience is an extremely important indicator, the issue with experience is that it can have bias attached to it. If a person experience is also matched with great skill, then you should definitely listen to this people, and properly value their opinion. This doesn't mean the person in question can't be totally wrong, it just means that the odds that this person is right are much bigger.

I don't blame marshals for anything, but their job in outlining game problems made aware by the community seems completely redundant. There are problems imported from WEE and WALB that haven't been corrected despite a thousand posts about it and a hundred viable suggestions to fix the issue.

Yes and I don't care about how you want to interpret the word "fix". If you have a problem with the word "fix" then I'm sorry to tell you but you should learn English.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fix
You don't need to go further down than point 1.a. "make stable or firm".
There there, your whole "broken" BS is fixed. Now let's stop focusing on semantics and instead focus on fixing what's wrong with the game.
"I suck at Wargame" or "I have to wait 30 minutes to pubstomp people" are not solid arguments to criticize the game... just saying.

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