Teams and randoms (pub stomping)

delor
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Re: Teams and randoms (pub stomping)

Postby delor » Fri 10 Oct 2014 18:01

Although I personally suspect stat padding is a pretty small minority, he's almost certainly not categorically wrong, and if you expand it to non-stat-related pubstomping for fun that minority probably gets a lot bigger.

People do these things. It's fun to win and it's fun to feel like you're an incredibly skilled player. In inexpensive (CS:GO) or free (LoL) games with skill-based matchmaking, they'll even go so far as to establish extra "smurf" accounts explicitly to bypass the matchmaking and get inexperienced, bad, and disorganized players to stomp. In Starcraft 2, they'll start matches and then quickly throw the game to get thier ELO down. And in Wargame, well, if you think that all of the half-full lobbies are totally just due to everyone wanting to control the game settings, and that all of the threads threads about stat resetting in this forum are driven by motivations as pure as driven snow, and that all of the people who have complained about getting kicked for having a high win ratio are lying or wrong about why they got kicked, I think you're letting being defensive about the fear that his claims might be pointed at people like you bias your thinking.

I do think that most of the issues Wargame has for solo players are non-malicious, non-pubstomping consequences of its lack of matchmaking. Of those that aren't, I suspect winning while having a good time with your friends far outweighs stat-padding as a motivation. Still, maybe recognize that some of it can be malicious and and even when it's not being on the other end of that equation still isn't very fun. Wargame's lobbies can make for a really awful experience for solo or inexperienced players, so maybe have a bit of patience with them.

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Re: Teams and randoms (pub stomping)

Postby bepphone » Fri 10 Oct 2014 18:11

What bothers me about premades isn't in-game ease of communication, it's more the more concrete things that premaking a team allows. In other words, making decks that take massive specialization hits and then compensate for them with their teammates' decks, which offers raw advantages in power that playing alone can't ever match.

Having to play with poor players or against people clearly more coordinated than I care to be doesn't bother me, but having to play against 3 people with decks that could never make it alone bothers me quite a bit. The massive disadvantages offered by certain nation specializations don't matter a bit when your buddy can compensate for that perfectly, and the net result is a force that's flatly better than your opponents'.

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Re: Teams and randoms (pub stomping)

Postby dalailama2006 » Fri 10 Oct 2014 19:02

delor wrote:
Spoiler : :
Although I personally suspect stat padding is a pretty small minority, he's almost certainly not categorically wrong, and if you expand it to non-stat-related pubstomping for fun that minority probably gets a lot bigger.

People do these things. It's fun to win and it's fun to feel like you're an incredibly skilled player. In inexpensive (CS:GO) or free (LoL) games with skill-based matchmaking, they'll even go so far as to establish extra "smurf" accounts explicitly to bypass the matchmaking and get inexperienced, bad, and disorganized players to stomp. In Starcraft 2, they'll start matches and then quickly throw the game to get thier ELO down. And in Wargame, well, if you think that all of the half-full lobbies are totally just due to everyone wanting to control the game settings, and that all of the threads threads about stat resetting in this forum are driven by motivations as pure as driven snow, and that all of the people who have complained about getting kicked for having a high win ratio are lying or wrong about why they got kicked, I think you're letting being defensive about the fear that his claims might be pointed at people like you bias your thinking.

I do think that most of the issues Wargame has for solo players are non-malicious, non-pubstomping consequences of its lack of matchmaking. Of those that aren't, I suspect winning while having a good time with your friends far outweighs stat-padding as a motivation. Still, maybe recognize that some of it can be malicious and and even when it's not being on the other end of that equation still isn't very fun. Wargame's lobbies can make for a really awful experience for solo or inexperienced players, so maybe have a bit of patience with them.


I'm not saying pubstompers don't exist, I just don't think they're as common as others seem to think.
People thinking that the reason for setting up premade teams is pubstomping, or stat padding or whatever, is what I take issue with.
Now I don't have any strong evidence either way but the burden of proof must surely lie with the person making a claim, and I have not seen any particularly convincing proof to support this claim.

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Re: Teams and randoms (pub stomping)

Postby captaincarnage » Fri 10 Oct 2014 20:05

bepphone wrote:What bothers me about premades isn't in-game ease of communication, it's more the more concrete things that premaking a team allows. In other words, making decks that take massive specialization hits and then compensate for them with their teammates' decks, which offers raw advantages in power that playing alone can't ever match.

Having to play with poor players or against people clearly more coordinated than I care to be doesn't bother me, but having to play against 3 people with decks that could never make it alone bothers me quite a bit. The massive disadvantages offered by certain nation specializations don't matter a bit when your buddy can compensate for that perfectly, and the net result is a force that's flatly better than your opponents'.


Your giving some premade 'teams' far to much credit :?
I hope your buratino's die screaming.

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Re: Teams and randoms (pub stomping)

Postby GunTotingDoofus » Fri 10 Oct 2014 20:16

Have you ever played board, sport or rally/racing games with friends. They are fun and you play against each other.

But you are missing my point. If want to play with friends and get your game to fill QUICKLY then making the sacrifice of splitting up will help getting others to join.
It is silly to complain about not getting people to join and then do nothing to change the situation. Think of it as selling your game, if you dont offer a desirable product you dont get customers.

Fact is that if you play against opponents of equal skill level on equal setting your win ratio should be around 50% and actually somewhat lower since draws drag it down. Anything higher than that means you play on "easy" setting.

The stat system in this game is not very good for destruction games. It should show not win/loss ratio but lost/gained destruction point ratio. that would encourage economic playing and discourage useless spamming. Conquest could retain win/loss thingy.

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Re: Teams and randoms (pub stomping)

Postby dalailama2006 » Fri 10 Oct 2014 21:32

GunTotingDoofus wrote:Have you ever played board, sport or rally/racing games with friends. They are fun and you play against each other.

But you are missing my point. If want to play with friends and get your game to fill QUICKLY then making the sacrifice of splitting up will help getting others to join.
It is silly to complain about not getting people to join and then do nothing to change the situation. Think of it as selling your game, if you dont offer a desirable product you dont get customers.

Fact is that if you play against opponents of equal skill level on equal setting your win ratio should be around 50% and actually somewhat lower since draws drag it down. Anything higher than that means you play on "easy" setting.

The stat system in this game is not very good for destruction games. It should show not win/loss ratio but lost/gained destruction point ratio. that would encourage economic playing and discourage useless spamming. Conquest could retain win/loss thingy.


I don't mind playing against friends but I know for a fact that others do, my own friends for example don't like playing against me.

To me the goal is not to get any game as quickly as possible but to have fun, and the best way to do that is to play with my friends if they're available, on maps that I like and with rules that I like. Then if the only opponents available are randoms then, to me, that is a lesser problem.

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Re: Teams and randoms (pub stomping)

Postby jaypnl » Fri 10 Oct 2014 22:36

GunTotingDoofus wrote:Fact is that if you play against opponents of equal skill level on equal setting your win ratio should be around 50% and actually somewhat lower since draws drag it down. Anything higher than that means you play on "easy" setting.


I play probably 80% of the time 10v10s as a lonewolf, last months i don't even bother checking w/l ratio's of the lobby. I just want to play a game ASAP without having to wait half an hour. My w/l ratio is 72% last time i checked. Let's face it, a lot of players simply suck and even more will instant rage quit when their precious nighthawk/b-5/whatever expensive unit gets destroyed or when they're down on zones/income and things look grim for them. I'll say playing 10v10s and escpecially the lower points ones all the way trough without quiting the minute something goes haywire will up you ratio with 10-15%(i've won a lot of games where finishing with a draw/win LOOKS nearly impossible). With nearly all RD maps having massive chokepoints and rivers to cross it can actually be really fun gradually falling back and try keeping the attacking horde at bay. I'm agreeing with most of what ur saying but the notion that u need to have a 50-ish percent w/l ratio if u'r not the pubstomping type is miles from the truth.

TLDR: The problem is not only with the people only playing with teams and having high w/l ratios but also with people either sucking really hard/addicted to rocket/arty spam and/or people ragequiting the minute they loose something expensive. Noone playing this game with the goal of having a fun and lasting match wants to play with the afformentioned type of players and there are a lot of these people playing wargame unfortunatly.

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Re: Teams and randoms (pub stomping)

Postby Coletrain » Sat 11 Oct 2014 10:43

To sum up this thread I'd like to point out 4 statements that I think many of you can agree on:

1. Destruction/Conquest/Total Destruction all have flaws, and just as importantly their simultaneous existence splits the community up almost as badly as paid DLC would.*

2. The lobby system is a relic of early PC Gaming, and a proper matchmaking system is desperately needed to fix the problems with unbalanced teams.

3. Current player performance metrics (stats) are designed in such a way that they serve only to stroke the ego, while providing no representation of actual achievements or talent.

4. There will always be players that will try to avoid a fair fight, and if they do end up in a fair fight they don't have the emotional maturity to enjoy games in spite of a defeat. These players will find some way to excuse themselves from a loss, such as "must be hacking", or my favorite "He isn't even good, just uses (X) tactic that is cheesy, cheap... etc. There is a free book available on the internet that discusses the psychology of players, and explains how the so called "tryhards" who actively try to challenge and improve themselves while learning from their mistakes are in fact having the most fun. http://www.sirlin.net/ptw

*I would personally argue that Conquest has the most authentic feel to it, as territorial control is the primary requirement to win most wars. I feel that those who argue in favour of Destruction are the ones don't understand how to avoid instantly losing in the early game. The truth is Destruction allows you to screw up in big ways and still come back, conquest is not nearly as forgiving.

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Re: Teams and randoms (pub stomping)

Postby ThatGuyTheGreat » Sat 11 Oct 2014 12:04

Coletrain wrote:
2. The lobby system is a relic of early PC Gaming, and a proper matchmaking system is desperately needed to fix the problems with unbalanced teams.


Not only did this seemingly come out of nowhere but it's insanely anathema to PC gaming. Matchmaking features are a console innovation that generally only serve to restrict the freedom players when implemented into PC games. Also, your message about fixing unbalanced teams contradicts statements you make of in game statistics not being indicative of skill.
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Re: Teams and randoms (pub stomping)

Postby SikkeSakke » Sun 12 Oct 2014 01:47

<drunken message deleted due hangover>
Last edited by SikkeSakke on Sun 12 Oct 2014 13:11, edited 1 time in total.

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