On Patriot again ...

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Mike
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Re: On Patriot again ...

Postby Mike » Sun 2 Nov 2014 15:50

kiheerSEDMAN wrote:Frankly, I think we just need some more dev transparency. A formal explanation on Eugen's current opinion on the Patriot and what they are considering to do with it from M̶͙͙̮̫͟a̷̛̗̲̘͚̦d̵̡͔̤̀Ḿ͕̭̜̜͠á̸̤̬t҉͓̖̥̙͖͕̠͞ would be great.

As soon as they say why people are just gonna come out and call them idiots instead of just saying: I disagree and this is why.
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Re: On Patriot again ...

Postby Col_Sandfurz » Sun 2 Nov 2014 16:46

Shrike wrote:Here is our mythical patriot truck.
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I believe this is a 2000's era unit. Eugen I demand manpad tanks for north korea.

Nope, in time line!
That is just a german Truck.. That is how German Bundeswehr Patriot TELs look like.
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Re: On Patriot again ...

Postby KattiValk » Sun 2 Nov 2014 16:55

Mike wrote:As soon as they say why people are just gonna come out and call them idiots instead of just saying: I disagree and this is why.
Compared to the flak they're getting now? It'll be a lot easier for them to be more open about it.

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Re: On Patriot again ...

Postby F-22 » Sun 2 Nov 2014 16:58

kiheerSEDMAN wrote:Frankly, I think we just need some more dev transparency. A formal explanation on Eugen's current opinion on the Patriot and what they are considering to do with it from M̶͙͙̮̫͟a̷̛̗̲̘͚̦d̵̡͔̤̀Ḿ͕̭̜̜͠á̸̤̬t҉͓̖̥̙͖͕̠͞ would be great.



Probably nothing, considering We've seen no hint of change.

But how are we supposed to know, they may have changed it already and all this discussion is pointless.

They've got their cover reasons for its inclusion, but in reality they don't justify it's inclusion at all, but Eugen is very very stubborn, or appear to be because they're not telling us anything and we won't know how they change it until the Scandi DLC.

I hope I'm wrong , but there's really nothing from Eugen's end to tell me or anyone else something's 'of Happenings'

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Re: On Patriot again ...

Postby Solo » Sun 2 Nov 2014 18:46

REDDQ wrote:
Solo wrote:1999 service date, shouldn't even be in game... One could argue that it's also a "legacy upgrade" and only came about because of the fall of the USSR. No place in a 1991 game but you don't see me clamoring for change.

You conveniently forgot that in-game prototypes are included with first working real prototype.
Solo wrote:You can upgrade it all you want but the basis is still 1960's tech. They increased automation and made it more resistant to EW and reduced redundancy. The ballistics of the missile remain unchanged. The radars are mainly unchanged. Only the Russian Pechora-M was a complete overhaul. At some point you have to start new. The Patriot is 1980's tech and is being constantly upgraded.

It is long range heavy missile, not R-73 or something. It wasn't created for heavy manoeuvring and as such age slowly. Meanwhile Patriot didn't manage to intercept straight flying dumb object (SCUD) with no ECM or any othe counter measures hurr durr.

Spoiler : :
Not that Patriot is bad


I would like to see any of USSR's cold war equipment try to intercept an 11m long, <1m diameter TBM moving at Mach 5. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Date most be looked at in context. NEWA-SC is a legacy upgrade which came about in response to the fall of the USSR and depleted stocks and production of S-125 missiles and Poland's desire to join NATO. Even if EUG has a source saying it was tested in 1995, which I have failed to find, it's not realistic in context of the game's alternate timeline. If Poland is still in Warsaw PACT and USSR is alive and well, they would not even be considering in-house weapons upgrades. Isn't the 1995 prototype deadline's purpose to find weapons systems that would be put into service by 1995 had the Cold War been extended and gone hostile? Using a date as a blanket for any fantasy unit regardless of the context of the unit isn't the direction Wargame should be taking IMO.
Last edited by Solo on Sun 2 Nov 2014 19:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: On Patriot again ...

Postby Sweedish_Gunner » Sun 2 Nov 2014 19:09

The SCUD isn't an ICBM, at least not in its original form. The Topol is an ICBM.
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Re: On Patriot again ...

Postby Solo » Sun 2 Nov 2014 19:18

Sweedish_Gunner wrote:The SCUD isn't an ICBM, at least not in its original form. The Topol is an ICBM.


So it is a TBM. Incorrect diction doesn't invalidate any of my points or logic.

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Re: On Patriot again ...

Postby REDDQ » Sun 2 Nov 2014 19:19

Solo wrote:I would like to see any of USSR's cold war equipment try to intercept an 11m long, <1m diameter ICBM moving at Mach 5. :lol: :lol: :lol:

No one is wanting USSR system with 5600m 70ACC or else not stronk.
Solo wrote:Date most be looked at in context. NEWA-SC is a legacy upgrade which came about in response to the fall of the USSR and depleted stocks and production of S-125 missiles and Poland's desire to join NATO. Even if EUG has a source saying it was tested in 1995, which I have failed to find, it's not realistic in context of the game's alternate timeline. If Poland is still in Warsaw PACT and USSR is alive and well, they would not even be considering in-house weapons upgrades. Isn't the 1995 prototype deadline's purpose to find weapons systems that would be put into service by 1995 had the Cold War been extended and gone hostile? Using a date as a blanket for any fantasy unit regardless of the context of the unit isn't the direction Wargame should be taking IMO.



Na początku lat 1990-tych Polscy przeprowadzili poważną modernizację zestawu S-125M. Modernizacją objęto cały zestaw za wyjątkiem rakiet i systemu antenowego. W 1992 r. przeprowadzono pierwsze próby poligonowe. W 1994 r. zakończono pierwszy etap modernizacji- umieszczenie wyrzutni i kolumny antenowej na podwoziach wozów zabezpieczenia technicznego (WZT–1). Skuteczność ogniową i wyższą manewrowość zastawu rakietowego zaprezentowano w trakcie ćwiczeń KARAT’94, kiedy wykonano strzelanie mobilnym zestawem rakietowym o nazwie roboczej S–125M ”Newa-MS”. W 1995 r. ukończono drugi etap modernizacji sprzętu bojowego: podwozie gąsienicowe zastąpiono podwoziem kołowym ( czteroosiowe pojazdy MAZ–543 ), na którym zamontowano kolumnę antenową oraz wyrzutnię.

W tym samym roku Zespół Badawczy Konstrukcji Zestawów Rakietowych (ZB KZR) płk. prof. dr. hab. inż. Jana Pietrasieńskiego rozpoczął prace nad modernizacją części elektronicznej (lampowej) zestawu S-125M. ZB KZR tworzyli pracownicy naukowi Instytutu Systemów Mechatronicznych Wydziału Mechatroniki Wojskowej Akademii Technicznej. W pracach uczestniczyły również Wojskowe Zakłady Elektroniczne w Zielonce. Skuteczność tego etapu modernizacji potwierdzono w trakcie strzelań w 1995 r.

W 1996 r., w trakcie ćwiczeń SZERSZEŃ’96, zaprezentowano wariant mieszany zestawu: wyrzutnia rakiet W-125S.C. na podwoziu gąsienicowym (WZT-2) oraz kolumnę antenową i kabinę dowodzenia KDN-125 na podwoziu kołowym MAZ-543 (uprzednio służące jako wyrzutnie rakiet 9K72 Elbrus). W latach 1997-1998 nadal prowadzono prace rozwojowe oraz testowano PZR S-125 Newa-SC. Dzięki zainstalowaniu stacji naprowadzania rakiet i wyrzutni na podwoziach samojezdnych (”Newa-S”) zwiększono możliwości manewrowych zestawu. W wyniku wymiany techniki lampowej na półprzewodnikową-cyfrową (”Newa-C”) uzyskano: wprowadzenie nowych algorytmów naprowadzania, zwiększenie skuteczności ogniowej, odporności na zakłócenia oraz niezawodności aparatury. Dodatkowo uniezależniono się od dostaw podzespołów z państw byłego ZSRR.

http://www.samolotypolskie.pl/samoloty/ ... S-125-Newa

In 1992 first trials on firing ground were conducted. Ie only 3 years after end of socialism. Awfully fast work for something that according to you didn't started before 1989 for sure.

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Re: On Patriot again ...

Postby DasBlut » Sun 2 Nov 2014 19:46

My best alternative tactic for dealing with patriots is using my SEAD very carefully. You stay out of range of most other SAMs and make the Patriot fire, so it reveal itself. You can take a single hit from the Patriot, if you're unlucky. After the Patriot position is know, you hit it with artillery. Rockets everything you got. Its unarmored, so it cant take much damage. Works sometimes, but yes it's a pretty dangerous unit.

You can also use a fighter with heavy ecm or a cheap expendable fighterbomber as bait.

Any other ideas ?

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Re: On Patriot again ...

Postby Solo » Sun 2 Nov 2014 20:18

REDDQ wrote:
Solo wrote:I would like to see any of USSR's cold war equipment try to intercept an 11m long, <1m diameter ICBM moving at Mach 5. :lol: :lol: :lol:

No one is wanting USSR system with 5600m 70ACC or else not stronk.
Solo wrote:Date most be looked at in context. NEWA-SC is a legacy upgrade which came about in response to the fall of the USSR and depleted stocks and production of S-125 missiles and Poland's desire to join NATO. Even if EUG has a source saying it was tested in 1995, which I have failed to find, it's not realistic in context of the game's alternate timeline. If Poland is still in Warsaw PACT and USSR is alive and well, they would not even be considering in-house weapons upgrades. Isn't the 1995 prototype deadline's purpose to find weapons systems that would be put into service by 1995 had the Cold War been extended and gone hostile? Using a date as a blanket for any fantasy unit regardless of the context of the unit isn't the direction Wargame should be taking IMO.



Na początku lat 1990-tych Polscy przeprowadzili poważną modernizację zestawu S-125M. Modernizacją objęto cały zestaw za wyjątkiem rakiet i systemu antenowego. W 1992 r. przeprowadzono pierwsze próby poligonowe. W 1994 r. zakończono pierwszy etap modernizacji- umieszczenie wyrzutni i kolumny antenowej na podwoziach wozów zabezpieczenia technicznego (WZT–1). Skuteczność ogniową i wyższą manewrowość zastawu rakietowego zaprezentowano w trakcie ćwiczeń KARAT’94, kiedy wykonano strzelanie mobilnym zestawem rakietowym o nazwie roboczej S–125M ”Newa-MS”. W 1995 r. ukończono drugi etap modernizacji sprzętu bojowego: podwozie gąsienicowe zastąpiono podwoziem kołowym ( czteroosiowe pojazdy MAZ–543 ), na którym zamontowano kolumnę antenową oraz wyrzutnię.

W tym samym roku Zespół Badawczy Konstrukcji Zestawów Rakietowych (ZB KZR) płk. prof. dr. hab. inż. Jana Pietrasieńskiego rozpoczął prace nad modernizacją części elektronicznej (lampowej) zestawu S-125M. ZB KZR tworzyli pracownicy naukowi Instytutu Systemów Mechatronicznych Wydziału Mechatroniki Wojskowej Akademii Technicznej. W pracach uczestniczyły również Wojskowe Zakłady Elektroniczne w Zielonce. Skuteczność tego etapu modernizacji potwierdzono w trakcie strzelań w 1995 r.

W 1996 r., w trakcie ćwiczeń SZERSZEŃ’96, zaprezentowano wariant mieszany zestawu: wyrzutnia rakiet W-125S.C. na podwoziu gąsienicowym (WZT-2) oraz kolumnę antenową i kabinę dowodzenia KDN-125 na podwoziu kołowym MAZ-543 (uprzednio służące jako wyrzutnie rakiet 9K72 Elbrus). W latach 1997-1998 nadal prowadzono prace rozwojowe oraz testowano PZR S-125 Newa-SC. Dzięki zainstalowaniu stacji naprowadzania rakiet i wyrzutni na podwoziach samojezdnych (”Newa-S”) zwiększono możliwości manewrowych zestawu. W wyniku wymiany techniki lampowej na półprzewodnikową-cyfrową (”Newa-C”) uzyskano: wprowadzenie nowych algorytmów naprowadzania, zwiększenie skuteczności ogniowej, odporności na zakłócenia oraz niezawodności aparatury. Dodatkowo uniezależniono się od dostaw podzespołów z państw byłego ZSRR.

http://www.samolotypolskie.pl/samoloty/ ... S-125-Newa

In 1992 first trials on firing ground were conducted. Ie only 3 years after end of socialism. Awfully fast work for something that according to you didn't started before 1989 for sure.


English translation

In the early 1990s, Polish conducted a major modernization of the set of S-125M. Modernization included the entire set except for rockets and antenna system. In 1992, the. First trial was conducted polygonal. In 1994. Modernizacji- the first stage of the launcher and column placement of the antenna on the chassis of cars technical security (CTM-1). The effectiveness of fire and superior maneuverability of the missile pledge presented KARAT'94 during exercise, when done shooting mobile set of rocket-named S-125M "Neva-MS" . In 1995. Completed the second phase of modernization of combat equipment: crawler track undercarriage replaced by a circular (four-axle vehicles MAZ-543), on which is mounted antenna column and the launcher.

In the same year the Research Team Construction Sets Missile ( ZB KZR ) Colonel. prof. dr. hab. Eng. John Pietrasieńskiego began work on the modernization of the electronic part (lamp) set of S-125M. ZB KZR created faculty of the Institute of Mechatronic Systems Faculty of Mechatronics, Military University of Technology . The work also involved the Military Electronic Markets in Zielonka. The effectiveness of this stage of the modernization was confirmed during the shooting in 1995.

In 1996,., During exercise SZERSZEŃ'96, presented a hybrid option set: Rocket Launcher In-125S.C. Crawler (CTM-2) and a column command antenna and cabin KDN-125 on a wheeled chassis MAZ-543 (previously used as rocket launchers 9K72 Elbrus ). In 1997-1998, work continued development and tested to PAS S-125 Neva-SC . By installing the station homing rockets and rocket-propelled on the chassis ("Neva-S") increased maneuverability set. Following an exchange of techniques for solid state lamp-digital ("Neva-C") were obtained: introduction of new algorithms guidance, increasing the efficiency of the fire, robustness and reliability of the equipment. In addition uniezależniono the supply of components to the countries of the former Soviet Union.


It still sounds like a post Cold War development to me. I don't think 3 years development to get a single working prototype when you're only doing electronics upgrades is awfully fast work at all. Unless there's a drawing or something dated pre-1989 I wouldn't believe development started before then. There's sources from 1986-1988 for Poland's planned modernization of T-72 tanks so I would expect a source for the Newa-SC if it had started pre-1989.

The timeline is very similar to the FGM-148 Javelin with post-1989 development, early 1990 first test, mid 1990s pre-production and integration into a weapons system, then late 1990s introduction to service. The FGM-148 Javelin was rejected as a post Cold War development, among other reasons. This screams post Cold War development with the "legacy upgrade" system in mind.

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