BLUFOR TOW Infantry

keebs63
Brigadier
Posts: 3091
Joined: Mon 3 Mar 2014 08:33
Contact:

Re: US TOW Infantry

Postby keebs63 » Thu 16 Oct 2014 04:44

FoxZz wrote:
cramble wrote:Why is everybody going away from the subject ?
If it was up to me i would choose Tow infantry above the Patriot. (not going to discus the patriot here.)
But lets be fair this has bin discussed so many times before and i didn't find a real reason why this isn't in game, okay its heavy but lets face it most ATGMs are they mostly are moved by vehicle to the front lines then moved up closer and not really used as a offensive weapon, more as a defensive weapon.
Most TOW armed vehicles have bipod with them for them to mount it off and place it concealed for defensive times. Wen in offence they are mostly mounted on the vehicles designed for this weapon system.

Here is a picture of infantry running with a tow launcher and ammo in a operation training for the Allied Command Europe Mobile Force operation called Avenue Express in 1989.
This picture shows the Dutch Marines Whiskey Infanterie Compagnie (WINFCIE) and the Tweede Amfibische Gevechtsgroep (2-AGGP).
Image

I just found this other picture with the same guys but the standing hold with the Tow weapon in there hands.
Image

More pictures about this operation you can find on this site:
http://www.maritiemdigitaal.nl/index.cfm?event=search.getsimplesearch&database=ChoiceMardig&needimages=true&searchterm=Avenue%20Express&allfields=&title=&keyword=&creator=&collection=&shipname=&invno=&museum=&startrow=1



ATGMS carried by footmobiles are used very often in an offensive role when the terrain doesn't allow the use of vehicles. If the system needs a vehicle to be moved, than it doesn't belong to the infantry section.
For instance, in Afghanistan Milan teams had to climb the moutain by foot to set up a fire position on the ridge and cover the valley, then, they had to follow the advance of troops. Milan systems were also droped with airborne troops in Mali.

Image
A Milan team climbing the moutain.

Image
A Milan team changing position.

As you can see, Tow and Milan missiles are not equal when it comes to moving with your foots.

You can't climb a moutain or march during several days with a Tow system, it's way to heavy.
Tow missiles are the equivalent of HOT missiles, they are are carried by vehicles and choppers and that's it.

And about the Mistral teams, Mistral are man portable, one guy carries the tripod, the other the missile.

This breaks my heart to think someone really believes this... no ATGM unit can march for days with it.... not unless its a tiny one like an SRAW or something.... and you're contradicting yourself with the Mistral. With TOW teams, one man also carries the tripid, one man carries the launch tube, and the rest carry missiles....
Image
"arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even if you win, you're still retarted" -Someone, somewhere in Wargame Chat 2015

User avatar
Mako
General
Posts: 7352
Joined: Sun 5 May 2013 20:00
Location: Cascadia
Contact:

Re: US TOW Infantry

Postby Mako » Thu 16 Oct 2014 04:46

The Rbs-70 weighs the same as the TOW, and they can literally march over mountains forever in game, because infantry don't have fuel.
If there's two kinds of players, those that like challenges and those that want a fair game, pubstomps should make everyone happy.

User avatar
panzersaurkrautwefer
Major-General
Posts: 3906
Joined: Fri 15 Feb 2013 16:48

Re: US TOW Infantry

Postby panzersaurkrautwefer » Thu 16 Oct 2014 04:51

Re: US Army TOW employment

The TOW equipped HMMWV was intended to dismount the launcher when required or desired. Especially on the defense it was much easier to emplace the missile system than build a fighting position for the HMMWV. Even in hasty positions dismounting the TOW was often the tactic of choice. It wasn't carried by a totally dismounted team of infantry or pack mules or some madness, but if we really wanted a TOW team in Wargames, modeling them as a very slow team riding in some manner of HMMWV (or Jeep in the earlier models) would be correct.

If we wanted to be ultra correct, for a wargames 4 or something, pretty much all the jeeps with ATGMs should be able to drop their missile system (although obviously the vehicle would lose the ability to fire missiles until the missile team remounted).

Re: Marching with ATGM

Maybe future wargames should have fatigue ratings. Light infantry with LAWs? Up and down that mountain super fast. ATGM team? Smoked and unable to climb further after 200 meters.
Do I look like a reasonable man to you, or a peppermint nightmare?

User avatar
Mako
General
Posts: 7352
Joined: Sun 5 May 2013 20:00
Location: Cascadia
Contact:

Re: US TOW Infantry

Postby Mako » Thu 16 Oct 2014 06:28

Yeah, just giving them 10 kph speed would be perfect.
If there's two kinds of players, those that like challenges and those that want a fair game, pubstomps should make everyone happy.

Znail
Lieutenant
Posts: 1256
Joined: Wed 18 Jun 2014 01:54
Contact:

Re: US TOW Infantry

Postby Znail » Thu 16 Oct 2014 08:08

Mako wrote:The Rbs-70 weighs the same as the TOW, and they can literally march over mountains forever in game, because infantry don't have fuel.

The launchers may weight as much, but the missiles are rather far apart in mass.

keebs63 wrote:This breaks my heart to think someone really believes this... no ATGM unit can march for days with it.... not unless its a tiny one like an SRAW or something.... and you're contradicting yourself with the Mistral. With TOW teams, one man also carries the tripid, one man carries the launch tube, and the rest carry missiles....

Obviously so can't soldiers march for days without sleep, food and rest breaks, not even if they carry nothing. But they are expected to be able to march for quite a distance with their assigned load. The classic requirement for the Swedish army is 30km at a good pace to graduate as a soldier.

User avatar
Chosimba
First Sergeant
Posts: 205
Joined: Fri 26 Jul 2013 05:57
Contact:

Re: US TOW Infantry

Postby Chosimba » Thu 16 Oct 2014 08:26

Znail wrote:
Mako wrote:The Rbs-70 weighs the same as the TOW, and they can literally march over mountains forever in game, because infantry don't have fuel.

The launchers may weight as much, but the missiles are rather far apart in mass.

keebs63 wrote:This breaks my heart to think someone really believes this... no ATGM unit can march for days with it.... not unless its a tiny one like an SRAW or something.... and you're contradicting yourself with the Mistral. With TOW teams, one man also carries the tripid, one man carries the launch tube, and the rest carry missiles....

Obviously so can't soldiers march for days without sleep, food and rest breaks, not even if they carry nothing. But they are expected to be able to march for quite a distance with their assigned load. The classic requirement for the Swedish army is 30km at a good pace to graduate as a soldier.


Stop spreading this, this is false. The weight of the missiles are extremely close.

Seriously just look up RBS 70 missile weight and TOW 2 missile weight.

fas.org has information on both of them. The RBS 70 missile, because it is not separated from its tube until AFTER it is fired, weighs more than the TOW 2 missile.

Why do people keep spreading this stuff.

Znail
Lieutenant
Posts: 1256
Joined: Wed 18 Jun 2014 01:54
Contact:

Re: US TOW Infantry

Postby Znail » Thu 16 Oct 2014 12:12

Chosimba wrote:Stop spreading this, this is false. The weight of the missiles are extremely close.

Seriously just look up RBS 70 missile weight and TOW 2 missile weight.

fas.org has information on both of them. The RBS 70 missile, because it is not separated from its tube until AFTER it is fired, weighs more than the TOW 2 missile.

Why do people keep spreading this stuff.

While you are correct that the casing should be considered and that the RBS 70 one is heavier so doesn't that change the mass of the actuall missile to be a lie. As a side note do did I notice on fas.org that the TOW does weight noticably more, although that extra mass can easily be carried by one more person, making it a 4 man job to carry the TOW rather then a 3 man job for the RBS 70. It's the missile guidance box that you can see plugged into the lancher in pics and videos.

But as I said before, the actuall mass matters less then if US actually has the habit of moving around it's TOW launchers by foot. If it would never happen in real life that US soldiers would pick up their TOW and walk 20 miles through a wood to use it to attack someone on the other side, then it shouldn't happen in game either.

User avatar
cramble
Master Sergeant
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue 24 Jul 2012 19:27
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: US TOW Infantry

Postby cramble » Thu 16 Oct 2014 12:36

Wel who talks about moving it on foot for 20 miles. They can just transport it by heli or vehicle. Like it is in game. But in combat you never know what you may have to do as you can see in the pictures i posted those dutch marines moved it on foot even running. It maybe is heavy but sometimes you just got to do it if ypu make it a 5 men squad like the rbs is ingame it would help some nations who leck it. As in the picture you see who is carrying what around. Shit typing on mobile.
''Our scars have the power to remind us that the past was real. We live in a primitive time, don't we? Neither savage nor wise. Half measures are the curse of it.''

User avatar
FoxZz
Chief Warrant Officer
Posts: 614
Joined: Thu 27 Mar 2014 19:16
Contact:

Re: US TOW Infantry

Postby FoxZz » Thu 16 Oct 2014 12:56

This breaks my heart to think someone really believes this... no ATGM unit can march for days with it.... not unless its a tiny one like an SRAW or something.... and you're contradicting yourself with the Mistral. With TOW teams, one man also carries the tripid, one man carries the launch tube, and the rest carry missiles....


Well, I'm sorry to break you heart and tell you that is possible and that ithas been done very recently in Mali.
In 2013, Jihadist had entranched themselves in a very moutainous region. To destroy them, a franco-chadian operation was carried. One batallion was attacking wih vehicles by the south-west side of the valley, chadian troops by the east side , and a french para battalion by the north across the moutain.
While others troops where motorized, the para battalion conducted an infiltration march of six days accross the moutain.
In this para battalion, there was several Milan teams that had to carry their Milan system during those six days, so it's definitely possible to march for days with a Milan.
You can see a Milan team on this video at 0'41", first to man carry one missile each, theone behind them got the tripod fitted on his back : http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pTxulC0G_60
With a TOW System, such a thing wouldn't have been posible.



The RBS5 has a foldable tripod and is easily man portable, you can even paradrop with it, as you can see on this video :
http://youtu.be/wReQuox4f9A

The Mistral system has also a foldable tripod that you can carry like a backpack, and missiles are fitted with a shoulder strap making it easy to carry, you can run with it.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u-ZbLAVpqDc

Here a picture where the missile shoulder strap is obvious : Image

The TOW system can be carried by mans, but on a very short distance, at very low speed, and it's not convenient at all, while others systems are way more convenient to carry and where conceived to be portable for infantry soldiers on foot, across rough terrain on long distances.
You can't introduce in wargame an infantry unit that can't move more tan 100m without its vehicle for a simple reason, transports in WG are used to spawn the unit and bring them to an intial location, but after that 90% of the time, they arn't use anymore, and the infantry keep going by foot. Moreover, wargame's infantry has access to locations where vehicles can't go ingame, and thus, it's IRL model should be able to do so.
To simulate a TOW team and its vehicle, there is already Humvee Tow vehicles, and others.
Last edited by FoxZz on Thu 16 Oct 2014 13:15, edited 1 time in total.

keebs63
Brigadier
Posts: 3091
Joined: Mon 3 Mar 2014 08:33
Contact:

Re: US TOW Infantry

Postby keebs63 » Thu 16 Oct 2014 13:07

1 mass and weight are not the same thing..... mass is the amount of room the missile takes up in this case.

Also, your nice little anecdote there proves nothing, I think we all already knew that airborne troops have to carry ATGMs.... and while your defense of the other systems was amusing, you can also fold up the TOW tripod and carry it on your back and you can also airdrop the TOW system....
Image
"arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even if you win, you're still retarted" -Someone, somewhere in Wargame Chat 2015

Return to “Wargame : Red Dragon”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Shifu and 30 guests