Armor vs AP adjustment?

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MILINTarctrooper
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Armor vs AP adjustment?

Postby MILINTarctrooper » Thu 18 Dec 2014 21:08

SInce the 105mm buff. I am perplexed by the current games single hit...near total kill system at range.

First I noticed that my T-72s were struggling against Leo-1 variants with the buff. Sometimes popping in under 2 hits at range.

But in recent games the issue has become more pronounced. And has forced Redfor to increasing use peek-a-boo tactics with forests or cities. While Bluefor tanks can roll into forests and cities fairly unmolested or with less fear with vehicle threats. Now when RPGS and SPGS are involved its a different matter.

Was there an adjustment to code pertaining to rolling a hit? Because Redfor autoloaders below 100pts seem to spray their shells across the countryside. While Bluefor tanks seem to nail all their targets from their specified ranges. Only if panicked or routed does their accuracy become questionable.

I am seriously questioning if Redfor armor needs a tad of a buff to accuracy and armor defense to counter the sudden open season of 105mm equipped tanks and armored cars.

I think also the other major reason of concern is the optics issue with Redfor coupled with size stats.

A Medium to Large target is going to get hit more often and accurately, than a small/very small target.

Redfor armor is also horrific in the majority of its optics packages...which then allows the majority of enemy units to fire almost unmolested with accuracy against threats.

But, I think some notes on the effects of the new 105mm buff and how quickly it takes for X unit with 105mm to kill Y Redfor unit should be done.
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Bougnas
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Re: Armor vs AP adjustment?

Postby Bougnas » Thu 18 Dec 2014 21:37

What were the T-72s you used? If they are T-72B then I would say it's quite normal. :?
But yeah, I remember a time when I destroyed quite easily 2 T-72B with Leo 1A5DK.
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Re: Armor vs AP adjustment?

Postby MILINTarctrooper » Thu 18 Dec 2014 22:22

Bougnas wrote:What were the T-72s you used? If they are T-72B then I would say it's quite normal. :?
But yeah, I remember a time when I destroyed quite easily 2 T-72B with Leo 1A5DK.

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Re: Armor vs AP adjustment?

Postby floread » Thu 18 Dec 2014 22:28

I have to agree with this. A lot of my games now have been just nothing but everyone hiding at treelines and cover, waiting for someone to blink.

Since the DLC3 beta release, I have been noticing a lack of any units staying power on the field. Most units are just being 1-shotted now. We have seen a upwards creep of gun AP on tanks but not much increase in the AV. The accuracy buff from earlier also makes a shootout conclude much faster than ever before.

Now, I feel like due to the current accuracy and lethality of most tank guns, static defenses are even better than before as not all tanks have good stabilizers. This has made maneuver attacks even rarer now(not that I remember it being that common before).

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MILINTarctrooper
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Re: Armor vs AP adjustment?

Postby MILINTarctrooper » Thu 18 Dec 2014 23:23

floread wrote:I have to agree with this. A lot of my games now have been just nothing but everyone hiding at treelines and cover, waiting for someone to blink.

Since the DLC3 beta release, I have been noticing a lack of any units staying power on the field. Most units are just being 1-shotted now. We have seen a upwards creep of gun AP on tanks but not much increase in the AV. The accuracy buff from earlier also makes a shootout conclude much faster than ever before.

Now, I feel like due to the current accuracy and lethality of most tank guns, static defenses are even better than before as not all tanks have good stabilizers. This has made maneuver attacks even rarer now(not that I remember it being that common before).


Yeah it just keeps getting weirder by the minute. And now with the Danish FKP bringing an Eryx along...its gotten hairy!

Whoever, gets in position first tends to win first.

There also appears to be a AV stacking issue too. I watched in one game where a T-72Wilk was literally point blanking a Chal2. And got wiped by one shot by the Chal 2 after making successive hits on the Chal2. The RDG gods must have not been pleased with that player that day.

Hence why it seems that Bluefor tanks have "Tiger Terror" now...they can prowl into forests and come out on top...even against supposedly fast firing...Autoloader T-72/T-64/T-80/T-90 variants.
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Re: Armor vs AP adjustment?

Postby Rosalis » Thu 18 Dec 2014 23:36

Good armour is still important if you have it. The issue as I see it is pricing; great AP and accuracy doesn't cost a whole lot (55% Accuracy and 17 AP for 60 points) but increase in armour values cost an arm and a leg (T-72A, T-72Ms, Chieftains etc) even though their 11-14 AVs give scant protection against all the bargain killers out there.

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Re: Armor vs AP adjustment?

Postby delor » Fri 19 Dec 2014 00:46

Armor in Wargame is a funny beast. Tanks play a game of one-upsmanship, but you could have exactly four levels of armor in Wargame and it'd still play pretty close to how it does now: Light (AV 1), Medium (AV 2), Heavy (AV 12), and Superheavy (AV 20). That's because these are the most significant thresholds for taking hits:

AV 0: You're toast.

AV 1: Withstand a single hit from things in the AP 5-9 range, such as scrub tank guns and clusters.

AV 2: Non-HEAT AP mostly won't one-shot you. Low-end RPGs won't one-shot you. HE mostly can't even two-shot you.
(this is the single biggest step in survivability the game offers, and is worth a lot in costing the unit)

AV 12: The majority of the HEAT weapons in the game won't one-shot you, and any AP weapons that aren't a tank gun or a specialized tank killer can mostly be ignored.

AV 20: Even high-HEAT damage sources are only doing a bit of damage to you, letting you effectively tank a few hits.

The area around 12 is a bit fuzzy, and if you're thunderdoming tanks against each other than a point of AP or AV here or there may make a world of difference. For the most part, though, a little bit of armor here or there doesn't make a huge difference on a mixed battlefield- especially given that when you field armor you're going to see a sharp spike in opposing units with 20+ AP because that's what a modern anti-armor weapon has in this game.

Consequently, pricing around armor is kind of tricky, because most of the time a few more points of armor isn't going to be worth anything.

EDIT- Tweaked the AV 1 description, since AV 0 vs AV 1 doesn't matter against HE. AV 0 vs 1 tends to correlate very strongly with 5 vs 10 HP, especially in CVs, and that does make a big different against blindfire HE-artillery, but it's not the AV that's doing that.
Last edited by delor on Fri 19 Dec 2014 01:45, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: Armor vs AP adjustment?

Postby DoktorvonWer » Fri 19 Dec 2014 00:49

delor wrote:AV 0: You're toast.

AV 1: Withstand a single hit from scrub tanks, small bombs/arty, and clusters. A moderate upgrade to the roof for anything that might get blind-fired by arty/bombs such as a CV, an artillery piece, and your ADN.

AV 2: Non-HEAT AP mostly won't one-shot you. Low-end RPGs won't one-shot you. HE mostly can't even two-shot you. This is the single biggest step in survivability the game offers, and is worth a lot in costing the unit.

AV 12: The majority of the HEAT weapons in the game won't one-shot you, and any AP weapons that aren't a tank gun or a specialized tank killer can mostly be ignored.

AV 20: Even high-HEAT damage sources are only doing a bit of damage to you, letting you effectively tank a few hits.


Well observed. And just another reason why the entire Chieftain line is horrendously gimped price-wise.
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Re: Armor vs AP adjustment?

Postby trineroks » Fri 19 Dec 2014 01:57

DoktorvonWer wrote:
delor wrote:AV 0: You're toast.

AV 1: Withstand a single hit from scrub tanks, small bombs/arty, and clusters. A moderate upgrade to the roof for anything that might get blind-fired by arty/bombs such as a CV, an artillery piece, and your ADN.

AV 2: Non-HEAT AP mostly won't one-shot you. Low-end RPGs won't one-shot you. HE mostly can't even two-shot you. This is the single biggest step in survivability the game offers, and is worth a lot in costing the unit.

AV 12: The majority of the HEAT weapons in the game won't one-shot you, and any AP weapons that aren't a tank gun or a specialized tank killer can mostly be ignored.

AV 20: Even high-HEAT damage sources are only doing a bit of damage to you, letting you effectively tank a few hits.


Well observed. And just another reason why the entire Chieftain line is horrendously gimped price-wise.
Now take the Commonwealth tanks, reduce their armor a bit more, reduce their accuracies significantly, and you have the Red Dragons tank/tank destroyer arsenal.
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