Overall balance is almost fine now

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Fussel
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Overall balance is almost fine now

Postby Fussel » Wed 31 Dec 2014 06:33

I just wanted to say that I am satisfied how the game has progressed in terms of balance. There are still some minor issues which have to be settled but this is the first time (after a longer break) where I can say that I and the people I play with don't mind playing either side. That was never the case before. This is mostly for 3v3+ as I didn't have any competitve 2v2's and 1v1's recently to base an opinion on. Even the new Scandinavia DLC didn't screw up balance all to much although some questionable decisions have been made (8 Strv121 ;) ).
Now we only need the beta to end to reduce waiting times so this game doesn't turn into Lobby Simulator 2015 and some more playable maps and I'm happy for now.

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Mister Maf
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Re: Overall balance is almost fine now

Postby Mister Maf » Wed 31 Dec 2014 06:43

It's the opposite for me. The game was great before the DLC 3 beta and I was more than happy to play as either side. Now I only play BLUFOR, because playing against organized Viking teams - which seem to have become the norm for organized teams in general - in an exercise in masochism.

To quote myself from my other most recent post:
Mister Maf wrote:Every time I play against an organized team of Scandinavia players, the following is the ordered sequence of events:

  • BKAN dakka rain on the roads to slow down opening deployments
  • Consequently lose the race to the middle of the map
  • Set up in secondary positions with remnants of opening deployments
  • Get liquidated by BKANs until there are only token ground forces left
  • Have no points for artillery to attempt counterbattery on account of replacing frontline units destroyed by incessant iron rain
  • Gradually give up defensive positions until everything snowballs into a wall of vikings rolling in pretty much uncontested
  • Have nothing left but airplanes to do any damage
  • Get accused of air spam
  • Lose all CVs, lose game
Without fail. Call me bad, but this is not fun to "fight" against and I don't care to put myself through it enough times to come up with a counterstrategy.
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Re: Overall balance is almost fine now

Postby Fussel » Wed 31 Dec 2014 06:53

Mister Maf wrote:It's the opposite for me. The game was great before the DLC 3 beta and I was more than happy to play as either side. Now I only play BLUFOR, because playing against organized Viking teams - which seem to have become the norm for organized teams in general - in an exercise in masochism.

To quote myself from my other most recent post:
Mister Maf wrote:Every time I play against an organized team of Scandinavia players, the following is the ordered sequence of events:

  • BKAN dakka rain on the roads to slow down opening deployments
  • Consequently lose the race to the middle of the map
  • Set up in secondary positions with remnants of opening deployments
  • Get liquidated by BKANs until there are only token ground forces left
  • Have no points for artillery to attempt counterbattery on account of replacing frontline units destroyed by incessant iron rain
  • Gradually give up defensive positions until everything snowballs into a wall of vikings rolling in pretty much uncontested
  • Have nothing left but airplanes to do any damage
  • Get accused of air spam
  • Lose all CVs, lose game
Without fail. Call me bad, but this is not fun to "fight" against and I don't care to put myself through it enough times to come up with a counterstrategy.


I think Smerches are even more devastating in doing what you described here. The BKAN is sure nice but it is not essential or a must have. In fact I don't use them even in my deck. I am totally fine with AMOSes.

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Re: Overall balance is almost fine now

Postby Mister Maf » Wed 31 Dec 2014 07:12

Then you've never played against somebody who stuffed their deck with all three cards, with backup from friends and maybe some AMOSes for kicks. The Smerch is incapable of killing infantry or stunning. BKANs are able to do these and destroy anything and everything, or do enough morale and physical damage to render what survives completely combat-ineffective. The horrors from ALB are back in force.
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Re: Overall balance is almost fine now

Postby raventhefuhrer » Wed 31 Dec 2014 07:45

Biggest problem right now is maps and out of control artillery.
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Re: Overall balance is almost fine now

Postby Forimar » Wed 31 Dec 2014 08:23

Outstanding issues I see since start of the game and since DLC1-
-Leopard power creep dominating every NATO and REDFOR tank up until the T-72B/Leo2 with even the T-72B struggling vs C2 MEXAS.
-MG and AT balance that only really benefited EC, CW, and Scandis that completely ignored the two nations that needed it most: USA to fix its horrible inf and USSR to allow them to stop having to rely on napalm inf crutch to compete (and massive nerfs to said napalm inf)
-Absolutely ridiculous new scandi units (Bkan 1C, AMOS, EOTS, NASAMS, 2 card STRV121 mainly) that will probably never be properly balanced
-Red Dragons still crippled despite being the entire point of the game
-3/4ths of REDFOR tanks being useless for stupid reasons (I'm looking at you, 2100m range T-64BM)
-Huge nerfs to US super units without any counterbuff to make up for it
-Already stated mortar/MLRS spam
-Super units dominating the game (entire armies or aspects of armies hinging on one or two ultra expensive 1-2 per card units)
-Entire US and USSR IFV lines barring M2A3, BMP-1D, and BMP-3 could be dropped 5pts and no one would notice
-ATGM vehicles and ATGM tanks being on varying levels of useless because they get revealed instantly after firing and the ATGM hitroll change
-Everyone's new favorite pastime of artying helos straight out of the sky
-USSR is still king of ASFs and USA is still king of AA

Yeah, balance is still awful. Personally I think balance peaked at the SPAAG nerf after DLC1, after that is has gone completely downhill with so many buffs to non-US NATO members and general power creep pushing so many units back into uselessness. At least I don't have to deal with hongrenadier spam anymore.

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Re: Overall balance is almost fine now

Postby hansbroger » Wed 31 Dec 2014 08:33

Forimar wrote:Outstanding issues I see since start of the game and since DLC1-
-Leopard power creep dominating every NATO and REDFOR tank up until the T-72B/Leo2 with even the T-72B struggling vs C2 MEXAS.
-MG and AT balance that only really benefited EC, CW, and Scandis that completely ignored the two nations that needed it most: USA to fix its horrible inf and USSR to allow them to stop having to rely on napalm inf crutch to compete (and massive nerfs to said napalm inf)
-Absolutely ridiculous new scandi units (Bkan 1C, AMOS, EOTS, NASAMS, 2 card STRV121 mainly) that will probably never be properly balanced
-Red Dragons still crippled despite being the entire point of the game
-3/4ths of REDFOR tanks being useless for stupid reasons (I'm looking at you, 2100m range T-64BM)
-Huge nerfs to US super units without any counterbuff to make up for it
-Already stated mortar/MLRS spam
-Super units dominating the game (entire armies or aspects of armies hinging on one or two ultra expensive 1-2 per card units)
-Entire US and USSR IFV lines barring M2A3, BMP-1D, and BMP-3 could be dropped 5pts and no one would notice
-ATGM vehicles and ATGM tanks being on varying levels of useless because they get revealed instantly after firing and the ATGM hitroll change
-Everyone's new favorite pastime of artying helos straight out of the sky
-USSR is still king of ASFs and USA is still king of AA

Yeah, balance is still awful. Personally I think balance peaked at the SPAAG nerf after DLC1, after that is has gone completely downhill with so many buffs to non-US NATO members and general power creep pushing so many units back into uselessness. At least I don't have to deal with hongrenadier spam anymore.


This about sums it up!
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Re: Overall balance is almost fine now

Postby raventhefuhrer » Wed 31 Dec 2014 08:37

Forimar wrote:Outstanding issues I see since start of the game and since DLC1-
-Leopard power creep dominating every NATO and REDFOR tank up until the T-72B/Leo2 with even the T-72B struggling vs C2 MEXAS.
Leopard 1's are in a great place now, after two games worth of uselessness. Buff other tanks to be competitive with them, Leo 1's should be the benchmark.

-MG and AT balance that only really benefited EC, CW, and Scandis that completely ignored the two nations that needed it most: USA to fix its horrible inf and USSR to allow them to stop having to rely on napalm inf crutch to compete (and massive nerfs to said napalm inf)
Because for some reason Eugen thinks they need to make artificial and arbitrary weaknesses for the superpowers to make them just like any other nation.

-Absolutely ridiculous new scandi units (Bkan 1C, AMOS, EOTS, NASAMS, 2 card STRV121 mainly) that will probably never be properly balanced
Meh. AMOS is just the worst of a larger problem - mortar spam. None of the other stuff is terrible.

-Red Dragons still crippled despite being the entire point of the game
They (and ANZAC) really need their own (small) DLC to be brought to a 'competitive' level.

-3/4ths of REDFOR tanks being useless for stupid reasons (I'm looking at you, 2100m range T-64BM)
Well, can't argue here. T-55, T-62 line both complete crap, T-64 overshadowed by T-72 line after T-72 line was buffed out of the shitty place it used to occupy. T-55 just need fairer pricing.

-Huge nerfs to US super units without any counterbuff to make up for it
Well, at least they've recognized USA was 'gimmick deck'...hopefully USA buffs are incoming. Or at least undoing the dumb nerfs like the US Marines '90 Nerf (wtf?)

-Already stated mortar/MLRS spam
Artillery spam in general is toxic to gameplay and far too easy to utilize while being almost impossible to stop/counterbattery.

-Super units dominating the game (entire armies or aspects of armies hinging on one or two ultra expensive 1-2 per card units)
Yeah, Wargame is a game of 'Trump Cards'. I play my T-72BU, you play your Hornet, I play my Su-27PU, your call out Patriot, which I try to counter with MiG-25BM...if I do it right I'm left with at least some of my trump cards once all of your's are dead and I get a big advantage.

-Entire US and USSR IFV lines barring M2A3, BMP-1D, and BMP-3 could be dropped 5pts and no one would notice
I'm more bullish about the BMP-1 and BMP-2 lines, which -need- to drop 5 points across the board. Bradleys and BMP-3's I'd probably say yes to as well, but they're less urgent.

-ATGM vehicles and ATGM tanks being on varying levels of useless because they get revealed instantly after firing and the ATGM hitroll change
Yeah. ATGMs are so wonky...the slightest line of sight obstruction be it a dip in terrain, a tree, a buff of smoke, whatever causes the ATGM to miss even if it's a situation which, IRL, would be very easy to reacquire target.

-Everyone's new favorite pastime of artying helos straight out of the sky
Yeah.

-USSR is still king of ASFs and USA is still king of AA
USSR and USA in general are pretty flipped around. USSR relies on so much super expensive stuff because their 'cheap' units are either overpriced, underperforming, or both. Meanwhile BLUFOR in general is all about spamming cheap planes and massive heavy tank blobs which USSR can't compete with because their tank between 100 and 160 points are all overpriced/underperforming.

Yeah, balance is still awful. Personally I think balance peaked at the SPAAG nerf after DLC1, after that is has gone completely downhill with so many buffs to non-US NATO members and general power creep pushing so many units back into uselessness. At least I don't have to deal with hongrenadier spam anymore.
Wow you actually made a post that succinctly listed most of the problems with the game balance. Good job!
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Re: Overall balance is almost fine now

Postby Sepsi77 » Wed 31 Dec 2014 10:44

I like the balance in 3v3 and 4v4 games.

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Re: Overall balance is almost fine now

Postby Zaskow » Wed 31 Dec 2014 11:04

I think, author is trolling or just playing scandi.

Leopard 1's are in a great place now, after two games worth of uselessness. Buff other tanks to be competitive with them, Leo 1's should be the benchmark.


Say honestly, what does thing have more chance: devs buff 2-3 units lines or just nerf 2-3 units? Nerf of leo 1 is easier.

Meh. AMOS is just the worst of a larger problem - mortar spam. None of the other stuff is terrible.


Problem of AMOS is big damage and availability. Nerf of availability to 3 maybe fixes the problem.

They (and ANZAC) really need their own (small) DLC to be brought to a 'competitive' level.


No new content for wg u know.

Well, can't argue here. T-55, T-62 line both complete crap, T-64 overshadowed by T-72 line after T-72 line was buffed out of the shitty place it used to occupy. T-55 just need fairer pricing.


T-64s are overpriced in larger degree, than t-72s. After redone of ATGMs soviet tanks suffered mostly, tanks atgms can't hit anything, except invar maybe.
Honestly, principle of how eugens balance red and blue tanks is very questionable. For blue tanks they buff all primary stats (range, accuracy, AP) for red - all secondary (autonomy, fuel, machinegun, tank gun HE). And they think it's fair. Okay...

Well, at least they've recognized USA was 'gimmick deck'...hopefully USA buffs are incoming. Or at least undoing the dumb nerfs like the US Marines '90 Nerf (wtf?)


Nothing to say, agree.

Artillery spam in general is toxic to gameplay and far too easy to utilize while being almost impossible to stop/counterbattery.


Why eugens don't level up needed supply for arty? Easy fix.
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