Hindsight 20/20: If you were Eugen...

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JBravo
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Re: Hindsight 20/20: If you were Eugen...

Postby JBravo » Sun 18 Jan 2015 05:33

To me, spam is when the enemy does the same thing over and over, that thing generally being something that is difficult to prevent even if you know it's coming.

A common example would be Smerch "spam", or just artillery in general - even if you know it's coming, there's not a whole lot you can do to prevent it besides spread out, which is sometimes hard to do when moving forest to forest on the attack, or in an area that cover is sparse.

Another one would be plane "spam": You know it's coming, and you might get the plane or planes on the evac, but if the enemy sends out enough of them over and over, you're going to get worn down. Plane spam is annoying but it doesn't seem to work quite as well, especially after an enemy who relies on them too heavily runs out of them.
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Re: Hindsight 20/20: If you were Eugen...

Postby raventhefuhrer » Sun 18 Jan 2015 05:47

Nerdfish wrote:Skill at Cybering. The only difference is the body part involved.


You either have no idea what cybering is, or have made such an inappropriate reference to it that I shudder to think what a tender youth such as yourself knows of these things.
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Re: Hindsight 20/20: If you were Eugen...

Postby AustrianOak » Sun 18 Jan 2015 05:58

Nope, he is completely right. I start every conquest game off with a semi when I move my starting forces. By the time I make my mid-game push, wow, I hope I am wearing a sock.
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Re: Hindsight 20/20: If you were Eugen...

Postby raventhefuhrer » Sun 18 Jan 2015 06:03

AustrianOak wrote:Nope, he is completely right. I start every conquest game off with a semi when I move my starting forces. By the time I make my mid-game push, wow, I hope I am wearing a sock.


Admittedly there is a certain exhilarating pleasure in plunging headfirst into a conquest game, claiming territory, dominating your enemy through sheer power of :oops: brb
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Re: Hindsight 20/20: If you were Eugen...

Postby another505 » Sun 18 Jan 2015 06:04

Shrike wrote:What I want to know is, what is spam? Everyone seems to have their own definition.


when i'm losing, i call you spam :lol:
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Re: Hindsight 20/20: If you were Eugen...

Postby Ghostweed » Sun 18 Jan 2015 11:46

:(
Last edited by OpusTheFowl on Sun 18 Jan 2015 20:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hindsight 20/20: If you were Eugen...

Postby PzAz04Maus » Mon 19 Jan 2015 01:51

Mike wrote:I've seen people say "Patriot Spam" like you could get dozens of them :lol:

I found 4 patriots to be horrid when they would battery fire at planes. That was up, but I wouldn't call it spam by any definition of a horde force.

But people did the same thing with buks, and nobody whined about a 4 stack of buk 'spam', even when the Buks practically did the same thing (entirely deny airspace). The patriot just has better range and grabs as much attention as a unicorn tank.

A MiG wheel though, with 5+ fighters? That's several cards of fighters pulling full area denial by sheer numbers. "Spam" in that scenario is cheesing a unit in an attrition situation with fragile units - that guy decided to dump over 500 points into a single solution to render a whole part of the game unusable without any game development whatsoever.

In other situations, where a unit's meta is built on numbers such as tanks and infantry, the law of diminishing returns comes into play. Nobody would say an infantry unit, which requires 12-20 line infantry to operate independently, is undesirable spam. But 36 infantry? That's a large number. 80 Infantry is undoubtedly spam.

So you can't really determine the 'spamminess' of a unit down to raw numbers. That is relative to the meta you're referring to. Hypothetically, if one had a tank force of 20 light tanks who were exceedingly effective at probing and killing armored vehicles at close range, that would probably not be very much spam compared to another tank force, ceteri parabus, but those same light tanks against another type of unit with a vastly different numerical meta, such as ADA, or scouts, could be considered spammy.

What I want to know is, what is spam? Everyone seems to have their own definition.

I've heard:

Attacking and maneuvering with large numbers of units

Unnecessarily barraging everything and anything with large amounts of artillery

To me it sounds more like word that is used by people find macro too hard and are use to games like Men of War, Company of heroes, or used by people who got crushed by some guy who took advantage of saving their points up and waiting for their teammates to drop so they can spawn a large blob.


I'd call that definition of 'artillery spam' a form of cheesing. They simply do the same repetitive motion over and over again of the RTS equivalent of hadouken-locking somebody into turtling. There is no efficient counter compared to how efficient artillery is, and, worse, the potential to flip the odds can and sometimes is rendered impossible by the meta and that lack of efficiency. For instance, the same opponent using artillery could have the purchasing initiative. His opponent might send helicopters or a cluster bomber to break the artillery lock, but because the opponent has the purchasing initiative, a smart one could plan ahead to save up for the 5 fighter discount, or simply added many more reserves. The closest thing to actual artillery horde spam would be 12 fast mortars.

On an aside, I had one game in ALB that was similar. The enemy had brought over 6 FOBs in a 3v3 or 4v4 match, then proceeded to buy over 20 pieces of artillery. Any gains were suppressed by 20 pieces firing on any target, and they had gained a massive purchasing initiative. But because they needed a massive number of points to fuel their artillery park, they couldn't translate that into breaking a front line filled with the skeletons of dead infantry platoons and tanks. All we were able to do was make local counters to stop this or that attack from succeeding. Which, to be honest, was slightly fun in a tongue-biting, seething contempt for the enemy sort of way.

But it wasn't possible to make an advance, which I think is the definition of success for the majority of the player base. It's not quite the right way to look at things, but I think that's a problem with the game's design: Wargame seems to fetishize gaining territory (see the generals' hand to the left, cap zones, the meeting engagement style of all battles), but it gives so little leeway to actualize those gains that succeeding is only the result of an dominating victory.That also probably explains why wargame is so frustrating when everyone aims for the almost unobtainable to their breaking point.
Last edited by OpusTheFowl on Mon 19 Jan 2015 04:25, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Hindsight 20/20: If you were Eugen...

Postby f4llout » Mon 19 Jan 2015 03:03

PzAz04Maus wrote:
Mike wrote:I've seen people say "Patriot Spam" like you could get dozens of them :lol:

I found 4 patriots to be horrid when they would battery fire at planes. That was up.

But people did the same thing with buks, and nobody whined about a 4 stack of buk 'spam', even when the Buks practically did the same thing (entirely deny airspace). The patriot just has better range and grabs as much attention as a unicorn tank.


Do not distort facts; range-wise Buks=Hawks, leaving aside other unit characteristics. Pats=mig31? Besides, they should've been proto since start. Secondly, people hate them because an un-specced Murrica deck can take them ... and you face a lot of Murrica if you play Pact.

Staying on topic; Eugen screwed up many unit/patch introductionss. Beta version community testing is far better way to go in the future.

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Re: Hindsight 20/20: If you were Eugen...

Postby PzAz04Maus » Mon 19 Jan 2015 03:13

f4llout wrote:Do not distort facts; range-wise Buks=Hawks, leaving aside other unit characteristics. Pats=mig31? Besides, they should've been proto since start. Secondly, people hate them because an un-specced Murrica deck can take them ... and you face a lot of Murrica if you play Pact.

Staying on topic; Eugen screwed up many unit/patch introductionss. Beta version community testing is far better way to go in the future.

I fail to see how I'm distorting facts. I hated Patriots like any other 4 stacks of radar AA when they could almost always guarantee a kill on anything. That's what made the longest ranged plane killer so broken, and that's what everyone thinks about when you say its name.

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Re: Hindsight 20/20: If you were Eugen...

Postby jmpveg22 » Mon 19 Jan 2015 06:55

Can we PLEASE Stay on topic as stated in the OP... geez Mods every other time you are all over junk like this. ;)

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