Arty spamming is killing this game.

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molnibalage
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Re: Arty spamming is killing this game.

Postby molnibalage » Tue 28 Apr 2015 14:41

Prettyhill wrote:
thenosh wrote:
Prettyhill wrote:In 1v1-4v4, in the destruction gamemode, if both sides are cynical (new players just will just suicide planes at you until you are 1500pts up), often play out as: recon-arty-recon-arty. Thats the game mode, and it has played out similarly since smerch sniping in WEE.

Its still surprising to see people host 40 min total destruction, let the game settle into a static state, and then complain about artillery.


To me it seems that this happens on certain maps where the middle line consists out of bridges, also mostly in 4v4. Isn't it?


I agree, some maps seems to be designed to be static. The number of players matters as well, as 4v4 matches are often played on maps designed for fewer players, resulting in very high unit saturation. But in general, at least for 3v3 and 4v4, every map has the potential to turn into WW1 when the teams are balanced and populated with "destruction veterans". In destruction, there is simply too few incentives to attack to balance out the risks of ending up at a net -250 pts after the attack. Successfully getting that +2 point is usually not worth it, especially not if you overextend and get owned by planes.


IMHO the following maps are the best, where sitzkrieg literaly never happens in case team are noot noobs or morons:

Paddy Field.
This is my favorite map. It is good even 4 v 4 and provides lot of options to use your mirco skills. Just set income well. Best for conquest because lots of zones. You can find a zone for contest anytime and you can swtich your pushpoint.

38th parallel
It is huge map, even in 4 v 4 you can avoid high unit saturation, and amphi capability can be used. Only disadvantage maybe the few zones comparing to Paddy Field.

Tropic Thunder
For tactical game is perfect or with lower income up to 3 v 3.

Plunjing Valley
Same as Tropic Thunder.

Nuclear Winter is Coming
Now with 2x2 spaw zones it is good even for 4v4, just never cross any bridge with high value unit...

Jungle Law
A map with lots of different features. All kind of decks are usable.

Another D-Day in Paradise
This is one of my favorite map, especially in tactical games.

--------------------
Average maps

Floods
The water gap is way to large to cross with amphi units, only helos are option... Too big portion of map is water...

Back to Inchon
Same as Floods just worse. Too large water, lots of rivers and very few cover close to these choke points. Very hard to use air force because of single spawn point on a very wide but "short" map...

Cold War Z
Too many hills and forest, the middle valley is too thin.

Korea Rocks
I simply had very few game on this, but I always felt way to open, too few cover. Likely is not so bad, but I had to play more than I did.


--------------------
Worse maps?

Wonsan Harbour.
I cannot explain how bad this map is. I do not play on this anymore. Ever.

Apocalypse Imminent.
At first sight seems good but the river and almost 0 cover close to river makes almost impossible to attack even in 2 v 2 and heavy smoke usage.

Hop and Glory.
I cannot remember when I played last time on this map. Maybe 1 year ago. Not only me, but literally nobody uses this map... Very large open areas wit almost no cover...

Chosin Reservoir.
I simply hate it. Just check how it looks... Hills, rivers, very hard to have any recon... I played maybe only 3-4 times...

Gunboat Diplomacy.
Sadly many tactical server uses this map instead the good 1v1 or 2v2 maps... The zones seems to me somehow incalanced and most part of the map is simply not used. So this is literally a 1 v 1 map...

Cliff Hanger.
Hills, rivers, very hard to have any recon. Air force kills any tanks very easily, are only 3 ways to advance. It has the worst features of worst ALB maps...

A Maze in Japan.
I never played on this map. I just checked how it looks and I forgot it forever... Forests, hills, forests, hills, This means only stupid bombing and endelss inf. fight...

Gjoll.
I have no idea why only Asgard has side spawn zones. This makes almost impossible attack beyond a certain point even if you try steal the spawn zones of opponent.
Last edited by molnibalage on Mon 4 May 2015 14:06, edited 3 times in total.

stratmania
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Re: Arty spamming is killing this game.

Postby stratmania » Tue 28 Apr 2015 14:51

Virunis wrote:I know ppl complain about arty spamming since this game release. Eugen has done stuff before to nerf artillery, but once again this game became unplayable on both sides. The degree of arty spamming is obscene and it is killing this game.

There is a serious need for another nerf, availability, price and supply costs for all artillery, specially MLRS. I know eugen is focusing on another game, but thats a simple change. Just as example, as it is I can buy 28 MLRS as East Block player, thats more than 1000 rockets per salvo.

The question is simple, i am not here to entertain you arty spammer.

I am here to play and have fun. Therefore i will not stay playing to just to waste one hour of my life buying units that are going to die to a neverending artillery barrage that covers half of the map.

And dont came with that same stuff of "adapt", as it is the issue is just not balanced.

The spammable arty in this game are cheap ones; that is, ones that are either inaccurate, or are not strong enough. Usually, the gripe is with cluster MLRS, but that's another topic.

Hell, I dare say that the 50-100 point howitzers need love. They are only really good for pounding predetermined positions.

The 28 launchers you are talking about... How the hell do you even deploy that many? Even if you can, your force is seriously lacking in other areas (read: killed by enemy tanks). MLRS have good DPS, but insanely long reloads. They rightfully deal great suppression damage, but that's it.

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Re: Arty spamming is killing this game.

Postby Saavedra » Tue 28 Apr 2015 18:34

The worst artillery to deal with are MLRS and heavy mortars. The MLRS are very deadly, and the mortars can fire and relocate too quickly while also being accurate. Medium and heavy howitzers are more balanced for gameplay.

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Re: Arty spamming is killing this game.

Postby stratmania » Tue 28 Apr 2015 18:42

Saavedra wrote:The worst artillery to deal with are MLRS and heavy mortars. The MLRS are very deadly, and the mortars can fire and relocate too quickly while also being accurate. Medium and heavy howitzers are more balanced for gameplay.

If I happen to face the AMOS, NONA-SVK, or the VPM-120 I just want to kill it ASAP.

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Re: Arty spamming is killing this game.

Postby captaincarnage » Tue 28 Apr 2015 19:30

Arty spam as a word gets tossed about a lot, i honestly don't see it that often outside of 10v10's which are just an unbalanced sh1t show, as you would expect...

I've been called an arty spammer for using a couple of high end arty pieces to murder someones aa network, oddly they didn't call me a plane spammer as well when i threw my entire air tab at the sector with the aim of making everything in it dead or stunlocked :(

Any game where one side is best served playing defensively will see arty used more than is pleasant to be on the receiving end of, some game types are worse than others in this respect, avoid them and profit :geek:
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Re: Arty spamming is killing this game.

Postby Mako » Tue 28 Apr 2015 19:33

Bloody Ridge 4v4s :lol:
If there's two kinds of players, those that like challenges and those that want a fair game, pubstomps should make everyone happy.

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Re: Arty spamming is killing this game.

Postby Virunis » Wed 29 Apr 2015 00:43

stratmania wrote:
Virunis wrote:I know ppl complain about arty spamming since this game release. Eugen has done stuff before to nerf artillery, but once again this game became unplayable on both sides. The degree of arty spamming is obscene and it is killing this game.

There is a serious need for another nerf, availability, price and supply costs for all artillery, specially MLRS. I know eugen is focusing on another game, but thats a simple change. Just as example, as it is I can buy 28 MLRS as East Block player, thats more than 1000 rockets per salvo.

The question is simple, i am not here to entertain you arty spammer.

I am here to play and have fun. Therefore i will not stay playing to just to waste one hour of my life buying units that are going to die to a neverending artillery barrage that covers half of the map.

And dont came with that same stuff of "adapt", as it is the issue is just not balanced.

The spammable arty in this game are cheap ones; that is, ones that are either inaccurate, or are not strong enough. Usually, the gripe is with cluster MLRS, but that's another topic.

Hell, I dare say that the 50-100 point howitzers need love. They are only really good for pounding predetermined positions.

The 28 launchers you are talking about... How the hell do you even deploy that many? Even if you can, your force is seriously lacking in other areas (read: killed by enemy tanks). MLRS have good DPS, but insanely long reloads. They rightfully deal great suppression damage, but that's it.


When the game first came I played support a lot, and did what today I am strongly against. 20 Danas in asgard with 10s aim time was insane, and they nerfed it.

Other day I took an MLRS spamm and decided to return the favor. Strait to the point, my cheap support stuff holding the shore while my grads supported the team. Not to mention the more expensive MLRS that can fire twice, you can make 28 Grads as East Block by using all the grads on the naval and support tabs, and if you really want to be cursed, use the extra slots on Shmells and his chinese clone.

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Re: Arty spamming is killing this game.

Postby Xeno426 » Wed 29 Apr 2015 00:58

Virunis wrote:Other day I took an MLRS spamm and decided to return the favor. Strait to the point, my cheap support stuff holding the shore while my grads supported the team. Not to mention the more expensive MLRS that can fire twice, you can make 28 Grads as East Block by using all the grads on the naval and support tabs, and if you really want to be cursed, use the extra slots on Shmells and his chinese clone.

Who the hell is playing naval?
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CloakandDagger wrote:And you're one of the people with the shiny colored name. No wonder the game is in the state it's in.

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Re: Arty spamming is killing this game.

Postby Mike » Wed 29 Apr 2015 00:59

Xeno426 wrote:
Virunis wrote:Other day I took an MLRS spamm and decided to return the favor. Strait to the point, my cheap support stuff holding the shore while my grads supported the team. Not to mention the more expensive MLRS that can fire twice, you can make 28 Grads as East Block by using all the grads on the naval and support tabs, and if you really want to be cursed, use the extra slots on Shmells and his chinese clone.

Who the hell is playing naval?

I play mixed maps against the AI just so I can use the Tomcat :cry:
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Re: Arty spamming is killing this game.

Postby Handley Page » Wed 29 Apr 2015 02:12

I have forever maintained that RD has a significant increase in the amount of arty you can bring into a battle and it is has forever gone unnoticed, so lets collect the data and see once and for all.

Here is a list of common arty that would be used in both games and their avails in a national deck, for the purpose of this only cluster MRL shall be counted in RD because who the hell uses standard HE MRL in RD.
ALB
M106A2: 3 trained/2 veteran - 2 cards
M109A6: 2 veteran - 2 cards
M270 MLRS: 2 hardened - 2 cards
FV333 Abbot: 3 trained/2 veteran - 3 cards
AMX AuF1: 1 veteran - 4 cards
PzMrs HS.30: 4 trained/3 hardened - 3 cards
PzMrs M113: 3 trained/2 veteran - 2 cards
BKAN 1A: 1 veteran - 4 cards
GW-SFL TUNGSCHA 120mm: 3 trained/2 veteran - 2 cards
2S23 NONA-SVK: 3 trained/2 veteran - 2 cards
2S19 MSTA-S: 1 veteran - 4 cards
BM-30 Smerch: 1 veteran - 4 cards
DANA: 2 hardened - 2 cards
RM-70: 3 trained/2 veteran - 2 cards
ShM-120 PRAM-S: 3 trained/2 veteran - 2 cards

RD
M106A2: 7 trained/4 veteran - 2 cards
M109A6: 2 trained/1 veteran - 1 card
FV333 Abbot: 7 trained/5 veteran 2 cards
AMX AuF1: 4 trained/2 hardened - 2 cards
PzMrs HS.30: 7 trained/5 hardened - 2 cards
PzMrs M113: 7 trained/5 hardened - 2 cards
M270 MARS: 2 trained/1 veteran 2 cards
BKAN 1A: 3 trained/1 veteran - 2 cards
GW-SFL TUNGSCHA 120mm: 7 trained/5 trained 2 cards
2S23 NONA-SVK: 4 trained/3 hardened - 2 cards
2S19 MSTA-S: 2 trained/1 veteran - 2 cards
BM-30 Smerch: 2 trained/1 veteran - 2 cards
DANA: 5 trained/4 hardened - 2 cards
RM-70: 4 trained/2 hardened - 2 cards
ShM-120 PRAM-S: 8 trained/ 5 hardened - 2 cards

From this we can see that arty (especially mortars) come in higher numbers with generally the same number of cards or they trade 1 card avail for fewer cards.

Excessive amounts of arty is easy to achieve even in a normal match.

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