Ban for helo rush in Rank Game

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chykka
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Re: Ban for helo rush in Rank Game

Postby chykka » Sun 26 Jul 2015 02:14

I love getting helo rushed...
If you have a Tunguska or some solid AA ready. Stirop 1/2, Flak panzer, Strella 2 maybe even.

Other than that it wins matches.. I lose ranked and I've stopped advancing armies with like 2 cassiopee.
Thing is, its wargame and if you aren't prepared at the start it's a bit of a gamble and luck is a big factor in it.

If you that worried about it, maybe run a support deck I dunno. But thing is it's not cost effective to helo rush. a few man pads costing under 100 points, can kill more than they can. (if you can defend you commands.) if you lose all commands thats game.

helo rush might get you those Total victories quick, than you'll probably see lots doing it if it was consistent. But I don't think it's as big of a problem as you guys think. Like what happens when a helo rush fails? If they are airborne, What do you gotta watch out for? If you survive the initial storm lol. But you gotta attack, and helo's are fast and usually can be the first thing that hits your flank or base. Also doubles are recon and distraction.

All in rush is might work sometimes, but helos are the most fragile.

It's not A big issue too me as I see a bunch of light tanks or apc/ ifv rush is just as deadly (if not more, as harder to counter), just not as fast.

Game play wise, Helorushing is Garbage. Makes for a match with very little interesting play. It's kinda the same as Infantry rush in AoA but if you ahead, might as well try it.

Razzmann wrote:Depending on the map, you just can't prepare properly for a heli rush / react quick enough while also setting up forces for a "normal" 1v1.

those "use aa" and similar posts are just pure bullshit, sorry.

At the same time I highly doubt something will happen with Ranked in Red Dragon other than some map exchanges (hopefully).


Yeah some maps have very little space between spawns, Hinds move faster before my opponent considers it an attack. :lol: Some maps give you mountains and concealing routes, so when you say "boy it's quiet, havn't seen any activity!" The tropical Helicopter storm could be imminent.

Some Hinds like NK are only 60 but NSWP can bring the same hind for 55 points, and with infantry. Nothing worse than infantry in your base to compliment the helos.
griffor wrote:have to agree with razzman people that honestly play and understand the game know it is broken it has been broken sense alb and red dragon did nothing to change it


Well yeah, helo cheese is almost as classic as hiding all your CV before destruction.
Every time some one trash talks the Hawk pip, I shake my head. Their patriot hasn't gotten helo rushed before I take it. What's broken about this is game is over before it starts, a lot happens in deployment. You can't see what your opponent has planned.

But I can agree, Putting everything into helos and flying straight through them. Is a game ender, also is probably not fun for both parties.

But imho, a good helo rush is only very few heli's that don't meet any Anti-Air.
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Re: Ban for helo rush in Rank Game

Postby Pleb Squasher » Sun 26 Jul 2015 03:37

Ronin(iceman) wrote:How long the game in the rank of 1x1 will be a circus with horses? As any fool with a bunch of helicopters break 2 minutes any game. Why can not limit all helicopters up to 2 cards, and no more than 4 helicopters each. And to make a minimum price +5, if it 100 cheaper. There is already a general's rank noobs fly on some helicopters. There shouldn't be such that you could buy at the beginning of the game helicopters more than 300 points.


I know the feeling dude, helo rush sucks. It's a scummy way to play the game and is too easy to get away with especially with the addition of recon gunships in RD...

Note that when I say helo rush I mean when the enemy player goes all out with gunships at game start.

I had a particularly bad experience a while back, when helo rushing was making a big comeback. I lost a few games, however there are a few things you can do to help with helo scam.
The first, is practice. After my first few flounders with helo spammers, I picked up on the common tactics and learned counters. You also learn a few tricks along the way that can really pay off.

Firstly, ensure you always open with at least 2 CVs, the only thing a helo spam will actively go for is these command vehicles so he can end the game fast before he loses his advantage. If you get helo spammed ensure that you send your second CV not to cap but to hide in an unexpected position until you can dispatch the helos, then come back and cap zones.

If you're particularly worried about helo spam, make sure you buy a tiny bit of cheap recon and keep a few points in reserve at game start. This allows you to buy emergency AA if in need. The cheap recon you sit around watching your base sector, some helo spammers will try to land CV infantry. Placing recon at base will allow your ground forces to sweep in and kill these pesky units.

Finally, micro your AA well. A big thing, is to ensure that your dedicated AA pieces are not in the in path of the enemy helos. The trick is to have your AA off to the side with good fire lines, this forces the player to go for your AA or CVs. Additionally, use cheap soft counters to helos as force multipliers. APCs with auto cannons or cheap fire support vehicles can really fuck with a helo spammer, stunning their helos are at least drawing their fire.

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Re: Ban for helo rush in Rank Game

Postby Pleb Squasher » Sun 26 Jul 2015 10:32

Razzmann wrote:Depending on the map, you just can't prepare properly for a heli rush / react quick enough while also setting up forces for a "normal" 1v1.

those "use aa" and similar posts are just pure bullshit, sorry.

At the same time I highly doubt something will happen with Ranked in Red Dragon other than some map exchanges (hopefully).


I agree with the better part of this, however it's fair enough that if you go heavy on AA/other anti helo rush tactics then you're accepting that you won't be playing a 'normal' 1v1.
People can play how they want and whether or not you play 'normally' (as according to the meta or whatever) doesn't really effect your legitimacy. My opinion is that normal play involves conventional combined arms play, however normal play for others can involve spamming or tapping into every little exploitable aspect of the game. While I prefer 'normal' games myself, it doesn't really have a bearing on what's balanced and what's not unfortunately.
Wargame early game is always a gamble; the trick is to work with what you know, that being your own strengths.


griffor wrote:have to agree with razzman people that honestly play and understand the game know it is broken it has been broken sense alb and red dragon did nothing to change it, other than better maps there is no way to change how people will play to win, sense any sort of patches or balance wasn't a first priority with this game

it was all about the next game of act of aggression, i guess a game a year is the new way all gaming companies work, sense its all about that money, and not about making a great product anymore i miss ee i felt like people made a effort


I shared this opinion a while ago when helo spamming was at its peak (for me anyway :x ) I made an angry yet decently informed post about it. It's definitely a problem that you don't get time to react/position/buy to counter helo spam, it's a problem because all other elements of the game operate around this principle.
I was convinced eventually though by a marshal who stated that cheese tactics were an intentional part of the game and he also mentioned that proper preparation at game start would ensure that I would defeat helo rushes. Of course, dedicating so much to early game AA meant winning ranked games against conventional players was harder but it seemed fair enough as that's what happens when you take a gamble and play to counter specific gameplay, you lose out in the other fields.

Get some practice in against a friend who will spam you, it'll go a long way seriously.

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Re: Ban for helo rush in Rank Game

Postby anto-shturmovik » Sun 26 Jul 2015 11:38

I don't play ranked, but even in normal 1v1 I sometimes meet helispam tactics. Generally speaking, the key is to detect them early. That's why I always send a recon chopper (a cheap one if possible) as far as possible at the beginning of the match. If you get really paranoid about it, you can even send a cheap fighter they will detect any flying unit from pretty far. I used to send 2 cheap interceptors (typically MiG-23MLD, F-4F, etc.) in ALB at the beginning oof the match to kill any helos. It doesn't work as well in RD, but it's still a viable tactic.

Anyway, be sure to include cost-efficiant AA in your deployment phase. Depending on the starting points, you can take pretty expansive ones, but I generally use fast-moving ones (AA choppers and AA on wheels), to cover my troops ASAP.

Anyway, it's been a very long time since I've been beaten by an helirush, and I'm not a particularly good player.
Oh, and BTW, simply don't play ranked. It's been "cheeseland" since WEE.
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Re: Ban for helo rush in Rank Game

Postby Lonfield » Sun 26 Jul 2015 13:15

griffor wrote:have to agree with razzman people that honestly play and understand the game know it is broken it has been broken sense alb and red dragon did nothing to change it, other than better maps there is no way to change how people will play to win, sense any sort of patches or balance wasn't a first priority with this game

it was all about the next game of act of aggression, i guess a game a year is the new way all gaming companies work, sense its all about that money, and not about making a great product anymore i miss ee i felt like people made a effort


Focus were there in a really much more active way. But this is what we got. I realized that Act of Agression would damage WRD too much when it was a game with a great potential. And ships.... how to waste loads of programming time.

And yeah!, WEE felt like developers and consumers worked together to make a great game, and comunity was listened. That's maybe because we were smaller and our ideas were easier to gather. Right now there's a lot of people that just wanna win, not play one of the best RTS ever.
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Re: Ban for helo rush in Rank Game

Postby duro909 » Sun 26 Jul 2015 19:31

Ronin(iceman) wrote:How long the game in the rank of 1x1 will be a circus with horses? As any fool with a bunch of helicopters break 2 minutes any game. Why can not limit all helicopters up to 2 cards, and no more than 4 helicopters each. And to make a minimum price +5, if it 100 cheaper. There is already a general's rank noobs fly on some helicopters. There shouldn't be such that you could buy at the beginning of the game helicopters more than 300 points.

Dude, you must be so frustrated by helo rushing that you do it by yourself as well :D :D :D
You really want to get yourself banned from ranked? :D
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Re: Ban for helo rush in Rank Game

Postby Ronin(iceman) » Sun 26 Jul 2015 19:39

duro909 wrote:Dude, you must be so frustrated by helo rushing that you do it by yourself as well :D :D :D
You really want to get yourself banned from ranked? :D

I'm just tired off from that. So I think if can't win it, should to use it.

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Re: Ban for helo rush in Rank Game

Postby Zhukodim » Sun 26 Jul 2015 20:10

This topic becomes interesting with some dramatic notes!
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Re: Ban for helo rush in Rank Game

Postby duro909 » Sun 26 Jul 2015 20:53

Ronin(iceman) wrote:
duro909 wrote:Dude, you must be so frustrated by helo rushing that you do it by yourself as well :D :D :D
You really want to get yourself banned from ranked? :D

I'm just tired off from that. So I think if can't win it, should to use it.


I know dude,
I faced you countless times and this was the first (and hopefully the last) time I saw you heli rush ;-)
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Re: Ban for helo rush in Rank Game

Postby Random » Sun 26 Jul 2015 21:04

I`m torn on the issue. In WAB, especially in the "raining men"-days I was in favor of limiting the amount of helos one could get in the start somehow(to 200-300 pts). Nowadays I`m unsure if that would be a good idea, as this forces people in a set playstyle, I`d rather nerf the helorush if it`s OP (something I can`t know as I`m not playing 1v1 ranked at the moment).


@All the "just buy AA/get the right AA/ l2p"-people:

The question isn`t "how can I beat a helorush?".

The question is: "What do you do against a player who plays normally x% of the time and y% of the time helorushes?"

So, sure, you can start with 200 pts in AA and/or reservepoints as well as a cheap plane for recon, but if your opponent decides to only get groundtroups you are left with 600 points of units vs your opponents 800(assuming 2 cv) which is not a good spot. In this way 1v1 becomes more like rock-papaer -scissors, which I consider a bad thing.

Also with namechanges being unlimited and no real way of knowing who you play against (except if there are very few people of that rank), you don`t know what numbers x and y are.

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