Wargame's maps: Three Miles Island (II)

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Re: Wargame's maps: Three Miles Island (II)

Postby raventhefuhrer » Wed 23 Sep 2015 00:42

FLX wrote:I guess it's a wonderful compliment :mrgreen:


If it plays well, I'll give even better compliments :D

What do you think of my idea from earlier, to make the center island divided between two zones instead of just one? Click for Example
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Re: Wargame's maps: Three Miles Island (II)

Postby FLX » Wed 23 Sep 2015 01:06

Amphibious assaults would have a more immediate effect but the fight in this area promise to be really cool, it's big, really big, infantry have to run in the street to jump from one group of districts to another so you have to use smoke and support vehicles if you don't want to end up pinned in the middle of the street.
I also like the situation of siege where this urban area can be isolated because you lost your bridges and you try to save your men in there.

Having a single sector compared to 2 also have a psychological effect that makes the fight even more tensed : when both player have a command on a big central zone they both consider that the sector belong to them and that the enemy is trying to steal it which is a stronger feeling than contesting an enemy sector close to your line.
People are more willing to fight when they consider themselves aggressed. (this rule can be applied from bar fistfight to World War declaration :mrgreen: )
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Re: Wargame's maps: Three Miles Island (II)

Postby Sigirdiwarth » Wed 23 Sep 2015 02:39

All of this sounds promising. What is there left to do on this map and highway? Should we expect them before the end of this month?
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Re: Wargame's maps: Three Miles Island (II)

Postby Mako » Wed 23 Sep 2015 03:01

raventhefuhrer wrote:So I appreciate the new maps, and this one in particular looks like you guys put a lot of thought into it. Some constructive criticism:

I worry that there isn't enough cover on the one-point plateau zones, and they look like bowl-shaped kill zones that will be difficult to fight over.

Also, if you guys want to work in amphibious assaults, islands with cover in the river is a great idea, but it's only a start. Amphibious assaults are doomed in RD for a variety of reasons, but chief among them is the following two.

1) Tanks, as the main instrument of offensive warfare, get left behind. This means that you can only really cross with infantry, and select supporting vehicles, which have little or no capability to engage enemy tanks outside of very close range. So, even if you can make it to the other river bank and find it undefended at the waterline, your attack then has nowhere else to go. It's 'stuck', because you have no durable armored units or powerful AA to protect you - they're on the other side of the river.

2) which leads to the next point. The rapid response time of aircraft and artillery means that your vulnerable and tenuous foothold across the river can be subject to almost immediate, debilitating counter attack. You can get bombed and shelled into oblivion, or at least slowed down to the point that the enemy can bring in the one or two tanks necessary to neutralize your progress.

So with amphibious attacks, it's an enormous amount of effort, and probably a lot of points invested for something that has very little potential to pay off, even if technically successful. On a map like 38th Parallel you can cross the river, into a zone, and neutralize it - on this map it works good because you need to go no further than the river's edge. On any other map, without the power of tanks and the support of your non-amphibious assets, your riverine assault has nowhere to go and no way to project power.


I agree with all these points, and would like to add a little.

ATGMs being in less than favorable position right now means that light units cannot bring the firepower with them necessary to destroy heavy armor.



Had Armored Bridge Layers been in the game, the dynamic would be acceptable, as the light forces would only need to hold a beach head until armor could cross the assembled bridges... unfortunately there is no heavily armored cavalry coming, which means the light forces either get smashed by heavy armor, artillery and air power, or are just light raiders and scouts.



On the purely positive side, I'm very very happy to see the thought put into maneuver warfare and cover, and especially the zone size in the center, for avoiding the "won in 10 seconds" thing.



I've been slowly working on a post about how cover functions in this game and its importance for maneuver warfare, so to see FLX addressing and recognizing some of the same issues is profoundly comforting.
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Re: Wargame's maps: Three Miles Island (II)

Postby [EUG]MadMat » Wed 23 Sep 2015 09:01

raventhefuhrer wrote:So I appreciate the new maps, and this one in particular looks like you guys put a lot of thought into it.

Mako wrote:On the purely positive side, I'm very very happy to see the thought put into maneuver warfare and cover, and especially the zone size in the center, for avoiding the "won in 10 seconds" thing.

I guess it must be snowing in Hell today ... :D

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Re: Wargame's maps: Three Miles Island (II)

Postby Pleb Squasher » Wed 23 Sep 2015 09:03

raventhefuhrer wrote:So I appreciate the new maps, and this one in particular looks like you guys put a lot of thought into it. Some constructive criticism:

I worry that there isn't enough cover on the one-point plateau zones, and they look like bowl-shaped kill zones that will be difficult to fight over.

Also, if you guys want to work in amphibious assaults, islands with cover in the river is a great idea, but it's only a start. Amphibious assaults are doomed in RD for a variety of reasons, but chief among them is the following two.

1) Tanks, as the main instrument of offensive warfare, get left behind. This means that you can only really cross with infantry, and select supporting vehicles, which have little or no capability to engage enemy tanks outside of very close range. So, even if you can make it to the other river bank and find it undefended at the waterline, your attack then has nowhere else to go. It's 'stuck', because you have no durable armored units or powerful AA to protect you - they're on the other side of the river.

2) which leads to the next point. The rapid response time of aircraft and artillery means that your vulnerable and tenuous foothold across the river can be subject to almost immediate, debilitating counter attack. You can get bombed and shelled into oblivion, or at least slowed down to the point that the enemy can bring in the one or two tanks necessary to neutralize your progress.

So with amphibious attacks, it's an enormous amount of effort, and probably a lot of points invested for something that has very little potential to pay off, even if technically successful. On a map like 38th Parallel you can cross the river, into a zone, and neutralize it - on this map it works good because you need to go no further than the river's edge. On any other map, without the power of tanks and the support of your non-amphibious assets, your riverine assault has nowhere to go and no way to project power.


I agree with this post, however it's important to consider that tanks are slow and deserve to smash a lightly armoured force when they finally arrive. The amphib force is used to secure bridges for heavy units to cross moreso than to win the game alone. Remember, bridges are key in any kind of warfare, so the system makes sense. Just secure those bridges :)

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Re: Wargame's maps: Three Miles Island (II)

Postby homerfcb » Sat 26 Sep 2015 11:36

I like really like the new maps, Three Miles Island looks very good. However, there are so many command zones. It's good for bigger games like 4 vs. 4. But most likely games will become smaller. Couldn't you make variants with less zones (maximum 6) of Highway and TMI, which are more suited for 1vs1 or 2vs2 ?
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Re: Wargame's maps: Three Miles Island (II)

Postby chykka » Sat 26 Sep 2015 15:29

More building spacing and a river with cover will probably bring out better amphib and city combat, this looking like one of the best version(s).
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Re: Wargame's maps: Three Miles Island (II)

Postby Caterpillar » Mon 28 Sep 2015 17:27

Love it how the 2vs2 and 4vs4 versions are made to be played completly differently
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Re: Wargame's maps: Three Miles Island (II)

Postby realfakealex » Fri 2 Oct 2015 14:32

I wonder, would there be another teaser soonTM....
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