Fine-tuning NK/China

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Bougnas
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Bougnas » Tue 7 Feb 2017 19:21

frosty, in your spreadsheet you say in the tank Sinhung entry: 76mm, original chassis not VTT-323.
I knew about the new chassis but you say that it actually used a 76mm gun? Do you know what gun this could be?
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frostypooky
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby frostypooky » Tue 7 Feb 2017 21:21

that was a mistake


redid the infantry slightly, should more easily match up with Keldon's suggestions as far as matching existing unit models to new roles goes. I don't agree with any SK ideas that they have broad, discrete airborne/air assault (An-2 or heli) focused units outside of TUGB (11th Storm Corps nowadays) and the two Air Force Sniper brigades -- in time frame it was limited to that crowd, and even now its something that's only been developed recently among the conventional light infantry units since Kim Jong Un's pivot to exploring new/expanded application of airpower in general.

Spoiler : :
for the game's purposes, AF Sniper Brigades would be included under the Chogyoktae/Jeogockdae unit just with Airborne tag added, and the TUGB's airborne focus would be represented in the suggested Kyojitae recon elite--the entirety of the TUGB is airborne qualified, it has a few brigades that are more focused on airborne (Hanggong Ryukjontae aka Yuckjeondae) but all TUGB share the same rough mission of primarily-airborne insertion into to attack strategic objectives in SK)

there is also English and SK confusion with the Light Infantry term-- it is used in NK to refer to both the tactical/operational light infantry units assigned to the conventional infantry divisions (which are more light infantry in the general mil sense of the term--they were formed to give infantry divisions an a way to reach high ground first with minimal support), and the TUGB's "Light Infantry" brigades which are strategic SOF that have little to do with the concept of light infantry.

to give a very rough comparison to US/Ru

Pochongsu - Infantry :: duh
Chongchaltae - Recon Bns :: Cav Scouts :: no clue
Kyongbobyong - Divisional Light Infantry :: Marines/101st Abn :: VDV
Chogyoktae - KPAF/KPAN Snipers :: Rangers/Marine Raiders :: Mil Spetsnaz
Kyojitae - TUGB Light Infantry/Airborne/Snipers :: Green Berets/SEALs :: Mil Spetsnaz
Chongguktae - REBU :: Delta Force/DEVGRU :: GRU Spetsnaz

The Korean Workers Party also had a SOF element (that was later folded with REBU to create the modern Recon General Bureau under the KPA's General Staff Department, which moves it overall to mil control rather than politburo control) but its as iffy as putting CIA/KGB paramilitary agents in the game.




so a long winded way to say you can make NK's shock and elites available to more decks instead of just Gongbobyong to Abn and Jeogyockdae to Marines or whatever. would even suggest giving both Shock Inf and Shock Recon access to Mechanized stuff.
Last edited by frostypooky on Tue 7 Feb 2017 22:06, edited 1 time in total.

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keldon
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Tue 7 Feb 2017 22:06

frostypooky wrote:

to give a very rough comparison to US/Ru

Pochongsu - Infantry :: duh
Chongchaltae - Recon Bns :: Cav Scouts :: no clue
Kyongbobyong - Divisional Light Infantry :: Marines/101st Abn :: VDV
Chogyoktae - KPAF/KPAN Snipers :: Rangers/Marine Raiders :: Mil Spetsnaz
Kyojitae - TUGB Light Infantry/Airborne/Snipers :: Green Berets/SEALs :: Mil Spetsnaz
Chongguktae - REBU :: Delta Force/DEVGRU :: GRU Spetsnaz

The Korean Workers Party also had a SOF element (that was later folded with REBU to create the modern Recon General Bureau under the KPA's General Staff Department, which moves it overall to mil control rather than politburo control) but its as iffy as putting CIA/KGB paramilitary agents in the game.


I'll put the new names to the 3 respective infantry proposals. Just for the consistencies sake, i don't think the other stuff like Pochongsu has priority, especially when they are not changed in any significant way.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby frostypooky » Tue 7 Feb 2017 22:17

keldon wrote:I'll put the new names to the 3 respective infantry proposals. Just for the consistencies sake, i don't think the other stuff like Pochongsu has priority, especially when they are not changed in any significant way.


sounds about right. though you would have to change Jeongchaldae name because name would overlap with the suggested shock recon name (Chongchaltae is same thing as Jeongchaldae, just romanized NK style). so 4 name changes :P

just to simplify for your request, the changes:

Yuckjeondae model -> Shock Inf Kyŏngbobyŏng (most decks that normally get Shock troops, allow tracked transports on top of heli/wheeled)
Jeogockdae model -> Elite Inf Chŏgyŏktae (most decks that normally get Elite troops, all wheeled/heli transports)
Gongbobyong model -> Shock Recon Chŏngch'altae (same as the Yuckjeondae rerole, allow in mech/armored and allow tracked transports)
Jongchaldae model -> Elite Snipers Chŏngguktae (no real changes, just name change to avoid overlap with new Shock Recon. would also suggest unarmed MD500 transport if Eugene/Faust mod is feeling nice :P)
(if possible) ROK infantry model -> new Elite Recon 10man Kyojitae, I would suggest the SAM-instead-of-MG treatment to make it less of an autopick compared to new Shock Recon. can be something dumb like a Stinger A instead of god tier MANPAD like other units in this category.

I really want my Mechanized-inclusion suggestions for the two shock reroles because a) authentic b) really opens up the VTT flavor (ZPTU-2 needs a reload speed buff though) :P

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Tue 7 Feb 2017 23:51

frostypooky wrote:sounds about right. though you would have to change Jeongchaldae name because name would overlap with the suggested shock recon name (Chongchaltae is same thing as Jeongchaldae, just romanized NK style). so 4 name changes :P

just to simplify for your request, the changes:

Yuckjeondae model -> Shock Inf Kyŏngbobyŏng (most decks that normally get Shock troops, allow tracked transports on top of heli/wheeled)
Jeogockdae model -> Elite Inf Chŏgyŏktae (most decks that normally get Elite troops, all wheeled/heli transports)
Gongbobyong model -> Shock Recon Chŏngch'altae (same as the Yuckjeondae rerole, allow in mech/armored and allow tracked transports)
Jongchaldae model -> Elite Snipers Chŏngguktae (no real changes, just name change to avoid overlap with new Shock Recon. would also suggest unarmed MD500 transport if Eugene/Faust mod is feeling nice :P)
(if possible) ROK infantry model -> new Elite Recon 10man Kyojitae, I would suggest the SAM-instead-of-MG treatment to make it less of an autopick compared to new Shock Recon. can be something dumb like a Stinger A instead of god tier MANPAD like other units in this category.

I really want my Mechanized-inclusion suggestions for the two shock reroles because a) authentic b) really opens up the VTT flavor (ZPTU-2 needs a reload speed buff though) :P


I added the names onto the proposals on the first page. Please take a look, i may have mixed things up.

While i do think authentic names gives a nice touch, i would still prefer eugen to do something about playability first. For that reason the NK infantry changes are listed under top priotity. After playing with the mod a bit, i firmly believe even in the most basic variant, in just shuffling them around would increase RD deck viability by a lot.

Regarding those extra transport options, i think it's unlikely to see them, since eugen... you know. But it would be nice if you are listing them on your spreadsheet, i'll refer to your spreadsheet in case of in detail NK authenticity stuff comes up.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby chainsaw » Thu 9 Feb 2017 14:49

- Gonbobyong re-role into shock recon squad

Isn't it redundant with Lie Ren? Why not elite 10-man recon squad?
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Thu 9 Feb 2017 16:11

chainsaw wrote:- Gonbobyong re-role into shock recon squad

Isn't it redundant with Lie Ren? Why not elite 10-man recon squad?


Not really, currently the CAT C recon inf slot is empty (I don't count the sniper squad which you'll have to shell out 25 pts for). RR as a AT weapon is unique for recon squad and the most important one: This change should be fairly easy.
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chainsaw
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby chainsaw » Thu 9 Feb 2017 21:09

keldon wrote:
chainsaw wrote:- Gonbobyong re-role into shock recon squad

Isn't it redundant with Lie Ren? Why not elite 10-man recon squad?


Not really, currently the CAT C recon inf slot is empty (I don't count the sniper squad which you'll have to shell out 25 pts for). RR as a AT weapon is unique for recon squad and the most important one: This change should be fairly easy.


How about an elite CAT C squad?
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Fri 10 Feb 2017 00:01

chainsaw wrote:How about an elite CAT C squad?


Dunno, while NK SOF can be considered elite or shock, i'd rather Gonbobyong not being priced 25 pts and get a hefty availbility cut with their current shitty loadout.

To make them decent elite recon, some better equipment should be handed out. At this point it is like asking eugen staff to sacrifice their firstborn. I'll be fully happy when eugen just do the infantry shifting, which would already be a huge help.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Tamerlane92 » Fri 10 Feb 2017 09:37

frostypooky wrote:
Jongchaldae model -> Elite Snipers Chŏngguktae
ROK infantry model -> new Elite Recon 10man Kyojitae



Is there any source of these name? it looks unreal.

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