Fine-tuning NK/China

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keldon
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Thu 7 Dec 2017 19:12

another505 wrote:Is not just the MRAAM, but the SRAAM sucks too.... 10 accuracy deduction is huge...
I still prefer Su-27sk as air to air loadout, giving them 60 accuracy and be like su27s isnt even that powerful. Is just average. Still outmatched most of the time so it doesn't even take away the flavour of bad RD fighters. Just not crippling incompetent.
Jh-7 can be the big bomber.

Also, i got to say, the NK mig-29 isn't bad( or i meant, extremely bad i imagined to be) , now i've used it a bit more. In pure anti helo hunting and support to the my Su-27sk in my joke RD armor deck. The Mig-29 could just be cheaper, or that R-27 get an accuracy buff. I know its an IR version of the R-27, but its range difference is marginal compare to R-73 but a whooping 15 accuracy difference?!

another thing, i know this is just a flavour thing
i really dislike RD's power is in ZSD 90 and WZ551.... RD is not really a mechanized/motorized force irl.
should be just spamming good cqc infantry in 5pt transport, with unique infantry like PF98 and QLZ 87.
let mech be eb, ec, and scandi's focus.


Taking the Su-27SK away is also an option, and honestly that thing is a huge disgrace to a line of beautiful jets. Ironically the top ASF ITF without any fancy mental gymnastics should be provided by NK with an authentic MRAAM MiG-29. As Chinas MRAAM are all in the limbo.

I disagree with the assesment about mech/moto. China deploys many divisions of mechanized infantry in north and motoriozed in south. I suppose your problem lies with the IFV themself, which i do agree to an extent. In early 90s those vehicles are a rather rare sight, and due to the doctrine "military has to wait" only very few domestic units got them. As for gameplay, i think it's unwise to just take them away, as it will cut into the infantry gameplay. There are better candidates, if we wanna be more authentic and cutting stuff out.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby another505 » Thu 7 Dec 2017 20:56

keldon wrote:
another505 wrote:Is not just the MRAAM, but the SRAAM sucks too.... 10 accuracy deduction is huge...
I still prefer Su-27sk as air to air loadout, giving them 60 accuracy and be like su27s isnt even that powerful. Is just average. Still outmatched most of the time so it doesn't even take away the flavour of bad RD fighters. Just not crippling incompetent.
Jh-7 can be the big bomber.

Also, i got to say, the NK mig-29 isn't bad( or i meant, extremely bad i imagined to be) , now i've used it a bit more. In pure anti helo hunting and support to the my Su-27sk in my joke RD armor deck. The Mig-29 could just be cheaper, or that R-27 get an accuracy buff. I know its an IR version of the R-27, but its range difference is marginal compare to R-73 but a whooping 15 accuracy difference?!

another thing, i know this is just a flavour thing
i really dislike RD's power is in ZSD 90 and WZ551.... RD is not really a mechanized/motorized force irl.
should be just spamming good cqc infantry in 5pt transport, with unique infantry like PF98 and QLZ 87.
let mech be eb, ec, and scandi's focus.


Taking the Su-27SK away is also an option, and honestly that thing is a huge disgrace to a line of beautiful jets. Ironically the top ASF ITF without any fancy mental gymnastics should be provided by NK with an authentic MRAAM MiG-29. As Chinas MRAAM are all in the limbo.

I disagree with the assesment about mech/moto. China deploys many divisions of mechanized infantry in north and motoriozed in south. I suppose your problem lies with the IFV themself, which i do agree to an extent. In early 90s those vehicles are a rather rare sight, and due to the doctrine "military has to wait" only very few domestic units got them. As for gameplay, i think it's unwise to just take them away, as it will cut into the infantry gameplay. There are better candidates, if we wanna be more authentic and cutting stuff out.

Nah, flanker should stay, just be useful. Su-27skm or Su-27s copy, preferably the former as it would be unique in the flanker line up, and i dont even think its that powerful...

160pts ASF 2 per cards aren't that competitive.

I suppose i should be clearer, is i dont like the feeling of playing RD, your advantage is within these ZSD90 and WZ551 that are rare, instead of the infantry should be its main focus, but i guess is just im completely discontent about RD still. Chomaho5 and igla buses were the biggest buff, but still can't save it.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby FrangibleCover » Fri 8 Dec 2017 01:21

Change the PL-11 on the J-8C to PL-10 (Skyflash statclone). It's now a Tornado F.2 with slightly better turning so it should clock in at around 115 points. For differentiation purposes I'd change the loadout to GSh-23L/4x PL-8/2x PL-10 but that's just me.

Or just buff the PL-11 to be honest. The seeker from an Aspide should mean that it's at least as accurate as a Skyflash, the huge size of the missile should justify 6HE and should also probably justify 8400m range like Skyflash SuperTEMP or R-27R. Basically anything to turn it from a 5+4 fighter into a 6+4 fighter.

Either of these changes would give China/RD a workable 2x Elite fighter and would allow the movement of the Su-27 up to cover the high end fighter role as the Su-27SMK. The North Korean MiG-29 can be turned into an L-18 clone and take over the middle 130 point price area if it's thought to be needed.
What if Wargame stuck to timeframe?
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby another505 » Fri 8 Dec 2017 06:15

Despite how unrealistic the Mig-29 is, i like it to see being buffed instead of a loadout change for how unique it is...
as long as Su27sk(m) and J-8c is viable, i wouldnt mind leaving the loadout like it

Should be like, 105-110pts, R-27T gets 60 accuracy
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Fri 8 Dec 2017 17:53

FrangibleCover wrote:Change the PL-11 on the J-8C to PL-10 (Skyflash statclone). It's now a Tornado F.2 with slightly better turning so it should clock in at around 115 points. For differentiation purposes I'd change the loadout to GSh-23L/4x PL-8/2x PL-10 but that's just me.

Or just buff the PL-11 to be honest. The seeker from an Aspide should mean that it's at least as accurate as a Skyflash, the huge size of the missile should justify 6HE and should also probably justify 8400m range like Skyflash SuperTEMP or R-27R. Basically anything to turn it from a 5+4 fighter into a 6+4 fighter.

Either of these changes would give China/RD a workable 2x Elite fighter and would allow the movement of the Su-27 up to cover the high end fighter role as the Su-27SMK. The North Korean MiG-29 can be turned into an L-18 clone and take over the middle 130 point price area if it's thought to be needed.


PL-10 was a failure and i believe it was also something people confused with the PL-11 during the dry years of military info. Since the designation was handed out to the new SRAAM few years go, the name PL-10 will continue to create confusion if ingame.

Like i said, there are many ways to approach the AIR situation, and i'm fine with all options you outlined. Still if there was a large revision/redesign, i personally would have cut/gutted the ASF department for the sake of creating a relative weakness and the adhearance to the reality of PLAAF in the 90s.

Although i agree with another505, the Su-27SK batch 2 in 1995 (aka Su-27SMK) won't be even that powerful.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby urogard » Sat 9 Dec 2017 22:55

We'll be approaching the 2 year anniversary of this thread.
I would like to congratulate OP for keeping up the good work and continuing to gather information.
Lots can be said about other people, but I won't, even though I really want to... :evil:

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Zark » Fri 15 Dec 2017 22:44

Keldon, were there any official upgrades/modifications to the Type 67 (or even replacements within the time frame) that could potentially be used to justify a higher rate of fire for the Zhanshi'85's Machine Gun?

In addition, is there any flavorful, realistic ways to differentiate the Yubeiyi from the NK Reservists? As it is now, they both serve the role of meat-shielding.

Also, is there any piece of kit within the time frame that would allow China to have an exceptional optics recon?

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sat 16 Dec 2017 17:06

Zark wrote:Keldon, were there any official upgrades/modifications to the Type 67 (or even replacements within the time frame) that could potentially be used to justify a higher rate of fire for the Zhanshi'85's Machine Gun?

In addition, is there any flavorful, realistic ways to differentiate the Yubeiyi from the NK Reservists? As it is now, they both serve the role of meat-shielding.

Also, is there any piece of kit within the time frame that would allow China to have an exceptional optics recon?


There are 67-I and 67-II. However i couldn't find anything specific about what got improved/changed.

The rpm for those guns are ranging from: 650-700 theoretical and 100-300 under combat condition. Nothing outstanding compared to the PKM.

About NK militia: There is a very flavorful and realistical way to chang them! Move them to recon. 15 men, militia recon, call them DMZ borderguard, redundancy reduced and usefulness gained! Maybe even one availability step more than the usual militia recon.

As for exceptional recon: There are two candidates, one for air and one for ground. The Z-9 (without weapon, hence no "A") was a arty spotter, although the more refined version with sensor pods, FLIR etc. is OOTF, there is always stuff like this

Image

Introdate is basically 1988 forward.

For Ground there is the ZZC-93 radar APC

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1993, depending on how strict you interpret the cutoff rule, it can be regarded technically ITF, since it is ealier than 1995.

Both unitinfo are courtesy from Youzhe.

btw. what follows is something i had thought about much during the years and had brought it up briefly a few times. This technically doesn't anwser to your question, so regard it as general info/off-topic please.

The type-67 MG shouldn't be handed out to standard infantry squad at all. They are regarded, organized and trained as heavy MG. They are used in dedicated MG squads, most of the time as defensive FIST. The gun itself came with a tripod pre-attached, which brings the weight up to 24kg. The gun can be used without the tripod and instead with the pre-installed bipod, however this isn't done very often and indeed won't happen under normal circumstances.

Also a important fact is the introdate of Type-67. Although the design was finished in the 60s and ready to produce in the 70s, the mass retardation event called cultural revolution delayed the actual production in the 80s. So the base Zhanshi are using a OOTF weapon in addition to the wrong "weapon class".

Standard PLA infantrymen are trained to be highly mobile and their SAW are provided by Type-56 (RPD), Type-81 (heavilky modified RPK), Type-95 (dat Bullpup gun). A squad with Type-67 would look like this:

Image

Please note, the gun in the pic is QJY-88 aka Type-88, which is the direct successor to Type-67, and it is also considered a heavy MG. Thats also the reason why 3 people are carrying a frigging 12kg gun including the tripod, because it's classified as heavy MG and trained as such.

However there is one unit aside from PAP borderguard who actively incorporate those "heavy gun" into battleplan. The marines aka Lu Zhandui.

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Given their job, which is a singular one of storming and holding a beach then not moving an inch from there, it is a perfect weapon. They also moved quite early to the QJZ-89 aka Type-89 12,7mm ultralight heavy MG

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The gun weight including the tripod 26kg, only 2 kg more than the Type-67. In Wargame standard abstraction it could be the most powerful infantry in the game. Shock 15 men squad with 12,7mm heavy mg and a 21 AP launcher.

Lost oppurtunity all across the Chinese/NK roster. I can somehow stomach the shitty arty selection, the gimped ASF (China is the only nation who gets downgraded R-27), pink unicorns as your best tank. But infantry? Cooooooooome ooooon, eugen!
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby 47andrej » Sat 16 Dec 2017 18:55

keldon wrote:About NK militia: There is a very flavorful and realistical way to chang them! Move them to recon. 15 men, militia recon, call them DMZ borderguard, redundancy reduced and usefulness gained! Maybe even one availability step more than the usual militia recon.

Great idea actually.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby nuke92 » Sat 16 Dec 2017 21:26

47andrej wrote:
keldon wrote:About NK militia: There is a very flavorful and realistical way to chang them! Move them to recon. 15 men, militia recon, call them DMZ borderguard, redundancy reduced and usefulness gained! Maybe even one availability step more than the usual militia recon.

Great idea actually.


This would make a lot of sense, would add more flava and save one unit which is a trademark of NK!
Red Dragons, two infantry oriented armies only have one infantry recon per deck...
Lie Ren were also shitty before while Jeongchaldae and other sniper teams have niche roles.
Only Sweden and Japan have one infantry recon, both shock.
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