Fine-tuning NK/China

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Xeno426
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Xeno426 » Sat 1 Oct 2016 08:09

ardi223 wrote:They have nuclear weapons how they don't have uranium processing?

Are you forgetting the date the game takes place in? Because it sounds like you've forgotten the game doesn't take place in the modern day.
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CloakandDagger wrote:And you're one of the people with the shiny colored name. No wonder the game is in the state it's in.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby ardi223 » Sat 1 Oct 2016 08:22

Xeno426 wrote:
ardi223 wrote:They have nuclear weapons how they don't have uranium processing?

Are you forgetting the date the game takes place in? Because it sounds like you've forgotten the game doesn't take place in the modern day.

The current wargames don't maybe for the next game they decide to juice it up a bit
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby DeckCheney » Sat 1 Oct 2016 09:03

ardi223 wrote:They have nuclear weapons how they don't have uranium processing?


http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/dprk/nuke.htm

The nuclear program can be traced back to about 1962, when the DPRK government committed itself to what it called "all-fortressization," which was the beginning of the hyper militarized North Korea of today. In the mid-1960s, it established a large-scale atomic energy research complex in Yongbyon and trained specialists from students who had studied in the Soviet Union. Under the cooperation agreement concluded between the USSR and the DPRK, a nuclear research center was constructed near the small town of Yongbyon. In 1965 a Soviet IRT-2M research reactor was assembled for this center. From 1965 through 1973 fuel (fuel elements) enriched to 10 percent was supplied to the DPRK for this reactor.

North Korea maintains uranium mines with four million tons of exploitable high-quality uranium.

In the 1970s, it focused study on the nuclear fuel cycle including refining, conversion and fabrication. In 1974, Korean specialists independently modernized Soviet IRT-2M research reactor in the same way that other reactors operating in the USSR and other countries had been modernized, bringing its capacity up to 8 megawatts and switching to fuel enriched to 80 percent. Subsequently, the degree of fuel enrichment was reduced. In the same period the DPRK began to build a 5 MWe research reactor, what is called the "second reactor." In 1977 the DPRK concluded an agreement with the International Atomic Energy Agency [IAEA], allowing the latter to inspect a research reactor which was built with the assistance of the USSR.


My ass the DPRK couldn't make DU penetrators.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby chykka » Sat 1 Oct 2016 09:06

Burning Uranium in a reactor is pretty inefficient use of such a rare element.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby DeckCheney » Sat 1 Oct 2016 09:18

chykka wrote:Burning Uranium in a reactor is pretty inefficient use of such a rare element.


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Uranium is probably one of the most abundant and useless metals on this planet. It's more accessible than Coal, Lead, and Iron.

Also Uranium isn't "Burnt"...

[url]
http://www.oecd.org/publications/uranium-20725310.htm[/url]
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby chykka » Sat 1 Oct 2016 09:54

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It's not exactly combustion but it will burn through the middle of the pellet.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Demonicjapsel » Sat 1 Oct 2016 13:02

Xeno426 wrote:
ardi223 wrote:They have nuclear weapons how they don't have uranium processing?

Are you forgetting the date the game takes place in? Because it sounds like you've forgotten the game doesn't take place in the modern day.


well the korean nuclear programme goes back to the middle 60's, secondly, North Korea has large reserves of Both tungsten and Uranium, (IIRC, the CIA Factbook cites that has approx 6-10 Trillion USD worth of rare minerals in its territory)

Also For anybody citing Graphs on the size of the North Korean economy, be aware that the US rounds down to the nearest 10 Billion, and the North Korean government stopped publishing GDP growth figures in 1967, so take them with a grain of salt.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby terror51247 » Sat 1 Oct 2016 13:34

codextero wrote:
DeckCheney wrote:

who would have guessed that Deck knows nothing about many other topics besides wargame balance.

North Korea was wealthier than South Korea and China on a per capita basis before 1970, since it was able to coast on soviet aid and leftover Japanese industrialization. However, by no means was it "fist world" in wealth. In 1970, the GDP/capita of the US was 17,000 in 1990's dollars, while you can see the GDP/capita of North Korea was slightly over 2000. Other "first world" countries all had much higher GDP/capita, the UK, Germany, and France were all sitting at 8000-9000 dollars.

The Norks simply do not have the tech base to produce anything on par with M829 without importing. To get depleted Uranium, you have to have Uranium processing, which they don't have. Ditto for the machine tools needed to forge and produce tungsten penetrators.

Thank you for answering that for me.BTW one probably doensnt build tungsten penetrators by forging.They are probably constructed by sintering.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Demonicjapsel » Sat 1 Oct 2016 15:14

terror51247 wrote:Thank you for answering that for me.BTW one probably doensnt build tungsten penetrators by forging.They are probably constructed by sintering.


the thing here is, that unlike, say West Germany, North korea is an army with a State rather then a State with an army. The major thing to remember here is that GDP figures for North korea are nearly useless for determining the actual size of the north korean economy, or to base assumptions on regarding its ability to manufacture weaponry.

Officially, the US report to congress lists the size of the North Korean economy at 40 Billion per annum according to the CIA factbook. Now the big IF on this is the fact that North Korea itself hasn't published a single figure sing 1967, and the CIA rounds down to the nearest 10 Billion, so its hardly accurate as an assessment.

To access your earlier criticisms, mostly relating to the armor, as i have some materials on that. First up, we can conclude that North Korea has a manufacturing base of some sorts, its able to produce small arms, MANPADS and ATGMS (all of those have shown up in various places around the world (Type 73's, Artillery and missiles showed up in the Iran Iraq war, as did the early versions of the Chonma Ho tanks in Iranian service) at this time, we also see the North Korean build SCUDs being used by Iran as well, indicating that North Korea is, at the very least, capable of reverse engineering components and propellant needed. (they bought several from Egypt.)

Which brings us to the Chonma Ho V, a tank that is clearly an attempt to gain some parity with the new designs being developed and used in South Korea, namely the K1, which is essentially a M1IIP, which isn't a bad tank, and is far more capable then what the North Koreans operate at the time. At this point, the North Koreans have 3 sources of info from which they draw their technology, the USSR, China and whatever they can procure from third parties in the Middle east, most notably Iran and Syria. (Syria supplied North Korea with the blueprints for the T-62 among other things).

Now in the Mid 80's Stuff like the T-72 and T-64's are quite common in the USSR, and China is working on its Type 88 series, which also contain various forms of composite armor.
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/201 ... layout.jpg

now the interesting thing about the Soviet Composites, is that for the most part, the armor between the T-64 and T-72 is rather similar, consisting of layers of Steel and Textolite, which is a form of plastic fibreglass used in the glacis plate. Given that the Same composite was used in the licenced production done by Czechoslovakia and Poland, means that the type of armor would be, at the very least, be obtainable for inspection, if not being able to take a few samples. So, if anything, its very well possible that North Korea obtained samples, either through official combloc channels or theft at this point, and can have the possibility to reverse engineer it (the North koreans had quite a lot of technical personnel educated in countries like Poland and especially the DDR), meaning that at the very least, it had the expertise to understand the concept if not having the tools to make it. (this is speculation on my part).

Given that its an in depth modernization, (we know the FCS has been completely reworked into a single, comprehensive system rather then a patchwork of separate ones) means that its very well possible, they overhauled the insides as well possibly freeing up space and weight to be used on adding composite to the frontal arc as well. Given that the base T-62 weights in at 37 Tonnes, means that replacing elements with composite can actually lighten the design (which saves beefing up the suspension).

https://s21.postimg.org/5ta5o4hd3/40xk.png
given that the turret has gone from the typical rounded Soviet style to one that is angular, its quite possible the same fibreglass setup is used on the Turret, given that from what i understand about it, the stuff isn't flexible at all so it requires flat, angular plates.

If you assume its an indepth modernization, and assume North korean manufacture is atleast capable of understanding certain concepts, its not unreasonable assigning it the values it has for armor, given that there isn't a whole lot of info on it.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby another505 » Sat 1 Oct 2016 15:21

Xeno426 wrote:
ardi223 wrote:They have nuclear weapons how they don't have uranium processing?

Are you forgetting the date the game takes place in? Because it sounds like you've forgotten the game doesn't take place in the modern day.

well good old USSR can come over and give T90s with Svinets, i bet they can just give some fantasy 115m DU rounds

besides a lot of countries have over AP values

Kyu Maru Shiki should have 19 only
Idk about China since.... well.... you literally cant get anything out of their tank shells, but they do have DU rounds with values like 650 RHA at 2km for ztz-85, but you dont even know what that DU round is called LOL
the whole challenger line since CHARM 3 is ootf, iirc, BTR gave chally 2 18 AP while M1a2 and T90s has like something like 24-25
and Moderna Twardy with good ol' USSR DU rounds again
and Im not sure about Israel either.... with 23ap ?

also OT, if USSR is well and alive in this timeline, why can't NK too?
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