Fine-tuning NK/China

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Shrike
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Shrike » Fri 2 Dec 2016 23:57

Compiled a list of goodies I compiled from a list that was made in a thread a while back. Compiled this list awhile back as a way to fill in any gaps while adding more flavor to the coalition.

North Korea
Infantry:
Spoiler : Youth Reverists :
Because having one choice of reservists wasn't enough, now with my grease guns
Image

Spoiler : Ban-Konkurs :
Image

Spoiler : RPO Infantry :
Image


Support:
Spoiler : 370mm Tripple Gun :
Image

Spoiler : M1985 :
240mm MLRS
Image

Spoiler : M1992 :
122mm/130 SPH
Image

Spoiler : M-1977 :
152mm SPH
Image

Spoiler : M1989 Koksan :
All around improvement to the 1978 model, faster aim time etc as well as a twelve round ammo capacity.
Image


China
Infantry:
Spoiler : Type 85 107mm rocket Teams :
Image
Type 85 107mm rocket , designed 84, entered service 87
The whole thing weights 23kg, single fire use, man portable and issued to platoon , 8.5kg max range.
http://weapon.huanqiu.com/107_mm_1985


Spoiler : QLZ85/Type 87 Grenade Launcher Teams :
capable of firing 35mm HE and HEAT rounds that penetrate up to 80mm of armor. Capable of automatic fire from 6 to 15 round drums. Also described as being able to be used against helicopters.
Image


Support:
Spoiler : PLZ-89 :
122mm Howitzer
Image

Spoiler : PLZ-45 :
155mm Howitzer
Image

Spoiler : WM 80 :
Image
WM 80 273mm MLRS with 8 rockets, 1983

max range 80km
max speed 1140m/s
fin stabilized and also has small rockets on the sides to stabilize it
has 2 kind of warheads, both 150kg
one cluster HEAT with 380 bomblets that could penetrate 80-100mm armor (rha? it just says armor)
another one with 34kg explosives and 16822 fragmentation pieces
http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/Class38 ... 45522.html

Spoiler : HQ-12 :
Image

Spoiler : HQ-17 :
TOR-M1, can be a basic Tor instead for Campaign reasons
Image
Intro 1997, slightly OOTF


Spoiler : Type 89 :
Tracked 122mm mrls for tank and mech units
Image


If I were to make a dlc/update for the dragons these probably be the units I'd pick since not only do they fill in the gaps, but they would also bring flavor. We can only dream though :(

Buff/Nerfs and Re roles section:
Universal
Spoiler : Artillery :
BM-24: Switch out the made up napalm ammo to HE ammo and smoke ability. Increase refill costs.
Lower base availability to 3(mixed decks), 4(coalition decks), 6(national decks)
Increase cost to 60
Nerf dispersion to 6000 to make it harder to spam with.
12 HE
Suppression 500
other notes: other BM-24 users can receive these changes as well.


North Korea
Spoiler : Vehicles :
ATS-103: De-prototype it, make it 2 cards
Add T-34 and SU-76M as infantry transport options
M1992 as recon transport

Spoiler : Air :
F-6C: Restore Pl-5 missiles
B-5: 2 per card, 1 card


China
Spoiler : Support :
PHL-63: Remove napalm ammo and replace with HE ammo. 7 HE


Also credits to:
another505
Admiral Piett
Grabbed_by_the_Spets
Dread
feeblezak
Oryx Blog

For finding these units and information on them
Last edited by Shrike on Sat 10 Dec 2016 00:06, edited 3 times in total.

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keldon
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sat 3 Dec 2016 00:14

Since we never really left tank land in this thread, a short info post on Chinese armor and APFSDS.

Let's begin with the ammo.

The usual public naming system is "first generation; second generation; third generation". There were names found here and there but due to the usual procedure by calling it "type+the year when it first caught your eye" so, it can't be official. China decided to endorse full domestic development after the own full tungsten 100mm round beat every 105mm the west was willing to sell.

There are several version of rounds in a given generation, and they are independent from each other based on their caliber. It is possible to roughly divide the generation in: 1980s = 1st gen, 1990s = 2nd gen, 2000s = 3rd gen. Most know data are from 2nd gen ammo.

All numbers are for distance of 2000m, DU round are more capable, but there is only number for 125mm version, so i'll leave them out

100mm: 350mm RHA (1st gen); 430-460mm RHA (2nd gen)
105mm: 350mm RHA (1st gen); 450-500mm RHA (2nd gen), size of a 105mm shell
120mm: 460mm RHA (1st gen); 550mm RHA (2nd gen), size of a PTZ-89 shell, for PTZ the round was shortened, true performance with full length round was 700mm RHA
125mm: 600mm RHA (2nd gen) standard issue to domestic PLA units


These are summerized from all the forum posts, occasional magazines and what's public accessible on the internet. It is here to give a rough idea, not to claim absolute truth.

Now on the armor.

Only interesting tanks are Type-80 family and Type-85 family

ZTZ-80/88:

around 300mm RHA overall frontal protection. With supposedly the frontal composite armor slab added to the chassis

ZTZ-85/96:

The estimates are all over the place but follows a range from 550-650mm on the internet. However 《当代中国的兵器工业》 series of book from 1993 claim the ZTZ-96 went with 530mm frontal protection into production.
http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/Class38 ... 352_7.html
Spoiler : :
根据《当代中国的兵器工业》一书介绍,683型复合装甲系由52所和617厂等单位在我国自行研制的第一种复合装甲——681型复合装甲的基础上改进而成,采用了“金属+非金属特种材料+金属”的“三明治”式结构,对于尾翼稳定穿甲弹和破甲弹均具有良好的防御能力。通过装备683型特种装甲,96基本型炮塔装甲在2000米距离上对尾翼稳定脱壳穿甲弹的防护能力达到了530毫米均质钢装甲的水平。这一指标同俄罗斯的T-90型坦克(未装备反应装甲)相当,超过了日本的90式(520毫米),但明显低于M-1A2(700毫米)。考虑到96基本型和M-1A2在战斗全重上的差距(96基本型战斗全重41吨,而M-1A2则达到了惊人的63吨),这样的差距也在情理之中。

The book is now discontinued, but can still be bought on Taobao: https://world.taobao.com/item/540240740196.htm#detail


To join the discussion about up-valuing 85 series from earlier, i think these changes are reasonable after the recent patch:

ZTZ-85-II => ZTZ-85-IIA (16 FAV+16 AP 105mm gun, 60% acc, 8 rpm for 80 pts)
ZTZ-85-IIA => ZTZ-85M (65% acc, 8 rpm with option a. 17 FAV+ 20 AP standard issue tungsten or b. 17 FAV+21 AP DU round for 115 or 120 pts )
ZTZ-85-III (17 base armor + 3 AV ERA = 20 FAV, 20 FAV+22 AP DU round, 8 rpm for 150 pts)
Image
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sat 3 Dec 2016 00:46

Shrike wrote:Compiled a list of goodies I compiled from a list that was made in a thread a while back. Compiled this list awhile back as a way to fill in any gaps while adding more flavor to the coalition.


I remember your thread. :D

However i think some of those are too ambitious and will require a DLC.
Image
> Sources for tuning Red Dragons --- Sources for tuning Blue Dragons <
亲们!大国梦哦!
小钱钱,真心甜,鼓钱包,放腰间,大国梦,早日圆 。啷个哩个啷♪

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby nuke92 » Sat 3 Dec 2016 01:58

Would ztz-96 come with Refleks or Invar. They were license produced since 1998 iirc.
Or were they used by ztz-98 units only?
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sat 3 Dec 2016 02:15

nuke92 wrote:Would ztz-96 come with Refleks or Invar. They were license produced since 1998 iirc.
Or were they used by ztz-98 units only?


Refleks, they are launchable from 96.

However i'd like to point out again, that ZTZ-96 is not a super heavy in the sense of wargame. PLA followed a similar path to Soviet in a dual approach with ZTZ-96 as low-end mass produced "everybody's tank" and ZTZ-99 as the top-end elite tank. Just like T-72 to T-64/80

Ironically ingame the ERA added 85-III would have better armor than the 96, and it will be hard get over it, if the nacked 96 would have more armor.
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> Sources for tuning Red Dragons --- Sources for tuning Blue Dragons <
亲们!大国梦哦!
小钱钱,真心甜,鼓钱包,放腰间,大国梦,早日圆 。啷个哩个啷♪

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby 中铁四局 » Sat 3 Dec 2016 04:40

Don't forget the Project 50 ( mean to be in parade for 50 years anniversary of PRC)

7th prototype were made by 1992, no reason not to be in the game

Spoiler : :
Image
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Sweedish_Gunner » Sat 3 Dec 2016 04:45

中铁四局 wrote:Don't forget the Project 50 ( mean to be in parade for 50 years anniversary of PRC)

7th prototype were made by 1992, no reason not to be in the game

Spoiler : :
Image


Isn't that the Type 98?

China's tank tab suffers from poor research and a reliance on the NK T-90S.

I will say the tank accuracy is rather generous with China however, the new Type 88's have the same accuracy as a T-80U...
Image

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby 中铁四局 » Sat 3 Dec 2016 05:18

Sweedish_Gunner wrote:
中铁四局 wrote:Don't forget the Project 50 ( mean to be in parade for 50 years anniversary of PRC)

7th prototype were made by 1992, no reason not to be in the game

Spoiler : :
Image


Isn't that the Type 98?

China's tank tab suffers from poor research and a reliance on the NK T-90S.

I will say the tank accuracy is rather generous with China however, the new Type 88's have the same accuracy as a T-80U...
Dear Eugen, Please give T-72BU its iconic red-eye shtora system back! It looks mean and awesome!

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby 中铁四局 » Sat 3 Dec 2016 05:19

Sweedish_Gunner wrote:
Isn't that the Type 98?

China's tank tab suffers from poor research and a reliance on the NK T-90S.

I will say the tank accuracy is rather generous with China however, the new Type 88's have the same accuracy as a T-80U...


WZ-123/ZTZ-98 or Project 9910, Project 50th, whatever you call it, many prototypes were undergo intensive ground text before 1998, the goal is to surpass contemporary T-72 series, but its firepower were surprisingly good(full length one piece round and L50 125mm), and the optics were Israel made IIRC. China is one of the few country which utilize DU ammunition/armor, Project 50/WZ-123 should be better then the eastern europe T-72M1 upgrades in game.......


BUT, as you said due to poor research, China really suffered the most in WRD, the name of Red dragon is already a bad joke, and even more so after the Fin/Yogo DLC, their unicorns are mind blast
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Bougnas » Sat 3 Dec 2016 10:02

keldon wrote:Since we never really left tank land in this thread, a short info post on Chinese armor and APFSDS.

Let's begin with the ammo.

The usual public naming system is "first generation; second generation; third generation". There were names found here and there but due to the usual procedure by calling it "type+the year when it first caught your eye" so, it can't be official. China decided to endorse full domestic development after the own full tungsten 100mm round beat every 105mm the west was willing to sell.

There are several version of rounds in a given generation, and they are independent from each other based on their caliber. It is possible to roughly divide the generation in: 1980s = 1st gen, 1990s = 2nd gen, 2000s = 3rd gen. Most know data are from 2nd gen ammo.

All numbers are for distance of 2000m, DU round are more capable, but there is only number for 125mm version, so i'll leave them out

100mm: 350mm RHA (1st gen); 430-460mm RHA (2nd gen)
105mm: 350mm RHA (1st gen); 450-500mm RHA (2nd gen), size of a 105mm shell
120mm: 460mm RHA (1st gen); 550mm RHA (2nd gen), size of a PTZ-89 shell, for PTZ the round was shortened, true performance with full length round was 700mm RHA
125mm: 600mm RHA (2nd gen) standard issue to domestic PLA units


These are summerized from all the forum posts, occasional magazines and what's public accessible on the internet. It is here to give a rough idea, not to claim absolute truth.

Now on the armor.

Only interesting tanks are Type-80 family and Type-85 family

ZTZ-80/88:

around 300mm RHA overall frontal protection. With supposedly the frontal composite armor slab added to the chassis

ZTZ-85/96:

The estimates are all over the place but follows a range from 550-650mm on the internet. However 《当代中国的兵器工业》 series of book from 1993 claim the ZTZ-96 went with 530mm frontal protection into production.
http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/Class38 ... 352_7.html
Spoiler : :
根据《当代中国的兵器工业》一书介绍,683型复合装甲系由52所和617厂等单位在我国自行研制的第一种复合装甲——681型复合装甲的基础上改进而成,采用了“金属+非金属特种材料+金属”的“三明治”式结构,对于尾翼稳定穿甲弹和破甲弹均具有良好的防御能力。通过装备683型特种装甲,96基本型炮塔装甲在2000米距离上对尾翼稳定脱壳穿甲弹的防护能力达到了530毫米均质钢装甲的水平。这一指标同俄罗斯的T-90型坦克(未装备反应装甲)相当,超过了日本的90式(520毫米),但明显低于M-1A2(700毫米)。考虑到96基本型和M-1A2在战斗全重上的差距(96基本型战斗全重41吨,而M-1A2则达到了惊人的63吨),这样的差距也在情理之中。

The book is now discontinued, but can still be bought on Taobao: https://world.taobao.com/item/540240740196.htm#detail


To join the discussion about up-valuing 85 series from earlier, i think these changes are reasonable after the recent patch:

ZTZ-85-II => ZTZ-85-IIA (16 FAV+16 AP 105mm gun, 60% acc, 8 rpm for 80 pts)
ZTZ-85-IIA => ZTZ-85M (65% acc, 8 rpm with option a. 17 FAV+ 20 AP standard issue tungsten or b. 17 FAV+21 AP DU round for 115 or 120 pts )
ZTZ-85-III (17 base armor + 3 AV ERA = 20 FAV, 20 FAV+22 AP DU round, 8 rpm for 150 pts)



Didn't the -IIA use the PLA-125? The 105mm isn't so interesting on this platform with the ZTZ-88s around.


I ´ve had a little time yesterday to try the RD changes. The 2AV WZ-551 is quite nice for opennings, and the Z-9A HJ-8 is actually viable now.
Image

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