Fine-tuning NK/China

delor
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby delor » Tue 5 Jan 2016 20:16

Razzmann wrote:2nd best? Better than the F2? I doubt it.


One of us is confused. I said the PD was the best and the F2 was the second best, and if buffed to elite the J-8C the J-8C would be the third best. Since I think the F2 is, itself, perhaps slightly too good for it's price, that doesn't mean the J-8C would be well priced at elite, either.

Razzmann wrote:Why? Easy:
Unlike the F2 and PD it needs 2 hits with the radar missiles to kill planes, otherwise it needs to hit with 3 missiles or the gun on top of that.


How exactly is the HE 6 one-shotting planes with that radar missile? Critical hits do +1 or +2 damage each. So... you're saying that the F2 will get 2-4 critical hits per shot with enough regularity to matter, and the J8-C won't?

Explain how critical hits work and how commonly the F2 is going to be one-shotting something with a HE 6 radar missile, please.

Razzmann wrote:Unlike the PD it does not stun the enemy plane on hit and it also has the same accuracy on its radar missiles as the PD.


Sure, great, the PD is awesome. That just supports the "so it shouldn't be used as a benchmark for pricing the J8-C" case.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby another505 » Tue 5 Jan 2016 20:20

Is not even the third best when RDI and the Scandi F16 are here
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Sigirdiwarth » Tue 5 Jan 2016 20:22

No mention of the need for zhanshi '85 to have access to the btr-152 with a funny name? Shameful display.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby delor » Tue 5 Jan 2016 20:24

another505 wrote:Is not even the third best when RDI and the Scandi F16 are here


At 4x7000m with 60%+ accuracy thanks to elite, for 20 points less, I think it could be. As it is presently, no, it's not.

It's a matter of degrees, though. I don't think it'd break anything if it were elite, but I do think it would be closer to well-priced at veteran instead.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby another505 » Tue 5 Jan 2016 20:26

delor wrote:
another505 wrote:Is not even the third best when RDI and the Scandi F16 are here


At 4x7000m with 60%+ accuracy thanks to elite, for 20 points less, I think it could be.

It's a matter of degrees, though. I don't think it'd break anything if it were elite, but I do think it would be closer to well-priced at veteran instead.

and RDI has base 60 percent SA MRAAM already, plus elite makes is super deadly, and 10 percent better ECM. 20 pts matter nothing, its more important of the avail. and veterancy
I am willing to pay 20 pts more to make sure my plane has a better chance at killing yours , when both of us have the same avai.

and non- ussr redfor' asf are in a terrible position
even the Polish mig29 is outshined by RDI
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby DeckCheney » Tue 5 Jan 2016 20:29

Give Jeodake/Jeodake '90 access to the Mi-24D (Mi-25) as a transport option.

Give Chinese/NK Mi-8s S-80 Rockets plz. Price nerf to 30pts.

Give a Recon Variant of the Chinese Z-9 (Good/Very Good Optics). Something on the RedFor Side Equilivelent to the Gazelle Cannon. Would be totally awesome if it used rockets instead of a cannon though- and wasn't prototyped. (Copy/Paste the French Panther 's Model).
Last edited by DeckCheney on Tue 5 Jan 2016 20:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby delor » Tue 5 Jan 2016 20:32

another505 wrote:and RDI has base 60 percent SA MRAAM already, plus elite makes is super deadly, and 10 percent better ECM. 20 pts matter nothing, its more important of the avail. and veterancy


Also, half the missiles, but it could very well be in the same bin as the F2 and PD.

Perhaps it should be veteran instead of elite as well- I'd need to think and play around in-game to better assess how I feel when it comes to 2 missiles versus 4.

another505 wrote:I am willing to pay 20 pts more to make sure my plane has a better chance at killing yours , when both of us have the same avai.


I think this argument has merit, but you're going to need to do a pretty comprehensive overhaul of the game's ASF if you want every ASF card to represent the same quantity of ASF killing power and endurance.

another505 wrote:and non- ussr redfor' asf are in a terrible position
even the Polish mig29 is outshined by RDI


I agree- there's a ton of REDFOR ASFs I'd love to see buffed.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Tue 5 Jan 2016 21:02

delor wrote: Yeah, sure, that'd be good.

This goes a bit beyond RD, but I'd also like to see the BTR-60PB, SPW-60PB, OT-64A, Skot-2A, and 23M Krak all dropped to 10 points and the RD BTR-80A given the availability buff that the USSR BTR-80A got. Non-USSR REDFOR transportation options has huge swaths where they don't have any good options, much less strong options. Let's at least give them reasonably priced weak vehicles.


yeah, KPVT sucks. Can't suppress like a MG nor deal dmg like a auto cannon and you pays the 5 pts premium anyway, only good for giggles if you kill a Leo 2 with it. On NK: I think to make mech deck viable your line infantry need to be either excellent or really costeffective. In case of Bochongsu a 5 pointer will help alot.

delor wrote: I don't like this one. The missiles are rubbish, but even a single heli kill pays for an awful lot of 5-point premiums on your IFVs.


Well, there is still the suggestion from chainsaw to consider. But consider tracked Speed and 3 HE missle the strela bus will always be a fallback air defense, in most cases the front will be set when they arrive and your HQ-7/Pong'gae 3 should be there anyways, therefor only good for saturation. currently at 30 pts a pop it is simply not attractive enough to take it over zsd-90.

delor wrote: I don't like this one. Militia spam is as annoying as heck, and on top of that RD has one of the two militia that is situationally worth taking- the NK SMG guys. Leave 'em be.


This is kinda an alternativ, if RD line infantry can't get a buff. then the glorious peoples militia should at least tank bullets with only 10 pts per pop... i mean they can't hold a candle against Jäger/MG 3 waves of doom anyway. Although in this case mech/armor won't benefit a bit, but like I said, fallback buff...

delor wrote: I think that'll make the -III too good. I vote 60% acc, 50% stab for the IIA instead.


imho the rpm is undervalued when pricing, the Chinese tank line suggests a glass cannon-ish usage, and the downgrade of dps is quite confusing. The ACC are all quite good for Redfor standard, but its the dps which hinders them. Also, i don't think with 85III will be too good at 8 rpm,all Redfor tanks in 110 pts upwards are sporting 8 to 9 rpm, while offering a overall better armor protection. It's another tradeoff firepower vs. armor.

delor wrote:It's already plenty lethal up close without the accuracy buff. It just costs too darn much. Drop the elite-ness, keep the price buff, IMHO.


Yeah, the cost is prohibitive, it should go down significantly. But this is also kinda a fallback buff, if J-8C or Su-27SK can't get anything, then NK needs to shoulder the costeffective asf operator role. On topic of J-8C Razzmann has already argued, on Su-27 i would say for flavour go for 65% MRAMM.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Tue 5 Jan 2016 21:05

Sigirdiwarth wrote:No mention of the need for zhanshi '85 to have access to the btr-152 with a funny name? Shameful display.


15 pts Gongbobyong can sorta take its role, if it gets buffed. Also i don't want to inflate the list, considering how short the last two patch notes were.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Razzmann » Tue 5 Jan 2016 21:07

delor wrote:
Spoiler : :
Razzmann wrote:Why? Easy:
Unlike the F2 and PD it needs 2 hits with the radar missiles to kill planes, otherwise it needs to hit with 3 missiles or the gun on top of that.


How exactly is the HE 6 one-shotting planes with that radar missile? Critical hits do +1 or +2 damage each. So... you're saying that the F2 will get 2-4 critical hits per shot with enough regularity to matter, and the J8-C won't?

Explain how critical hits work and how commonly the F2 is going to be one-shotting something with a HE 6 radar missile, please.

Razzmann wrote:Unlike the PD it does not stun the enemy plane on hit and it also has the same accuracy on its radar missiles as the PD.


Sure, great, the PD is awesome. That just supports the "so it shouldn't be used as a benchmark for pricing the J8-C" case.

I worded myself badly, you understood it wrong. But whatever, I just made some tests with Elite J-8 vs Elite F-16/Mirage/F2
(thanks 505)

Results:
F2: 10-3
Mirage: 10-2
F-16: 10-6

I don't think it surprises anyone that the J-8 lost everytime, but it got completely rekt by the F2 and Mirage. It only had a decent chance against the F-16

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