T-64BM vs. Leopard 2A1

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wargamer1985
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Re: T-64BM vs. Leopard 2A1

Postby wargamer1985 » Fri 26 Feb 2016 04:26

EInarial wrote:
wargamer1985 wrote:
EInarial wrote:Autoloader means crap when it can't hit the broad side of a barn. You're just throwing supplies downrange.

Luckily a T-72B1 can hit the barn with reasonable efficiency. Plus, the T-72B1 is more effective against infantry, lower and higher-tier tanks (higher AV and AP) and its autoloader makes it much more effective at closer ranges and in a concentrated armor push.


not in the situation mentioned above (the autoloader will help when the tank is panicked compared to the MEXAS)


Of course that was at max range, and with all of the LOS blockages in the game you will rarely get a 2275m range engagement, but in that scenario, yes, the MEXAS is superior to the B1 in the AT department, at least in one on one.
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Re: T-64BM vs. Leopard 2A1

Postby Steamfunk » Fri 26 Feb 2016 12:19

Would've been better if the AP were capped at 17, acc up to 60%. The ATGM isn't worth anything, especially if you miss the first shot (which is very likely).

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Re: T-64BM vs. Leopard 2A1

Postby urho » Fri 26 Feb 2016 15:21

Putin187 wrote:
At MAX range
B1 needs 4 hits to kill full hp Mexas
Mexas needs 5 hits to kill full hp B1
at Range 2100
B1 needs 3 hits
Mexas needs 4 hits
if we dont take moral damage into account:
MAX range
B1 need to fire 7 (6.89)shots fired to kill Mexas on average. This takes 7/8 of a minute (52.5 seconds).
Mexas needs to fire 7 (6.66)) shots to kill B1 on average. This takes 7/10 of a minute (42 seconds).
Basicaly if T-72B1 doesnt score the first hit, it is better to retreat.
Any other questions?

And why would we do that given that one tank has a autoloader and the other one doesn't.
mhhhhmmm.......
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Re: T-64BM vs. Leopard 2A1

Postby hansbroger » Fri 26 Feb 2016 17:06

You don't factor in the autoloader for 90+% of engagements because the autoloader has no bearing on most fights except for the point blank forest/urban brawls that any tank over 50 points has no business being in anyway. A tank with an autoloader but inferior FCS characteristics is ultimately just as useless as a tank with inferior FCS characteristics and no autoloader when it is facing an enemy with superior FCS, AP and RoF that can reliably place an engagement deciding, morale destroying first round hit. The number of shots you send down range has little bearing on the fight if you kick it off with the severe morale penalties to aimtime and accuracy that have been inflicted to a tank with already inferior FCS and RoF... Unless you maintain that RNG is reliably guided in the favor of autoloader tanks by the ghostly hand of comrade Stalin.....

As testing shows the autoloader is hardly important except for at absurdly close ranges because the unit that possess it is liable to be immediately hit by enemies with superior FCS atmost battle ranges (because you can't have good fcs AND an autoloader unless you're a superheavy) at the start of the engagement and be forced to conduct the entirety of the engagement with damaged morale while the opposing unit is rarely hit on the first shot and can fully exploit it's portfolio of advantages over the dreaded autoloader tank.

Given the already inferior base RoF of autoloader tanks I argue to the contrary that autoloaders allow tanks with inferior FCS to ultimately match the number of shots fired by their usually superior FCS bearing manually loaded counterparts. Go and count the shots and you'll find that when under duress both tanks actually will fire off just about the same number of shots, with the autoloader only rarely exceeding a adversary when both are near panic. The autoloader is an equalizer at best. Not an advantage.
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Re: T-64BM vs. Leopard 2A1

Postby Putin187 » Fri 26 Feb 2016 17:20

urho wrote:
Putin187 wrote:
At MAX range
B1 needs 4 hits to kill full hp Mexas
Mexas needs 5 hits to kill full hp B1
at Range 2100
B1 needs 3 hits
Mexas needs 4 hits
if we dont take moral damage into account:
MAX range
B1 need to fire 7 (6.89)shots fired to kill Mexas on average. This takes 7/8 of a minute (52.5 seconds).
Mexas needs to fire 7 (6.66)) shots to kill B1 on average. This takes 7/10 of a minute (42 seconds).
Basicaly if T-72B1 doesnt score the first hit, it is better to retreat.
Any other questions?

And why would we do that given that one tank has a autoloader and the other one doesn't.
mhhhhmmm.......

As i stated above:
Table of Results:
(number represents HP left)
T-72B1 Mexas
2 ........... 0
2 ........... 0
0 ........... 4
0 .......... 10
0 ........... 1
0 ........... 1
these are the test results. If B1 misses its first shot and Mexas doesnt, B1 will almost inevitably lose the fight. Conclusion B1 has some other features over Mexas but in 1v1 situation he will most likely lose. So whole your argument about injustice is irrelevant. If you really want to change point cost on Mexas then make it cost 80 (solely on 1v1 performance but i wouldn advice it).
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Re: T-64BM vs. Leopard 2A1

Postby DeckCheney » Fri 26 Feb 2016 17:44

Both the Mexas and T-72B1 are balanced. The fact that none of you can post a decisive argument overall favoring one tank is proof- both are situational and tailored to certain roles.

Go argue about the Chieftain Mk 11, M1IP, 80pts DDR T-72/ NSWP 75pt T-72s, 85pts Chinese ZTZ-88, and the shitty French Tanks nobody ever uses- tell us how well these stack up against the Mexas.
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Re: T-64BM vs. Leopard 2A1

Postby urho » Fri 26 Feb 2016 18:24

Putin187 wrote:
urho wrote:
Putin187 wrote:
At MAX range
B1 needs 4 hits to kill full hp Mexas
Mexas needs 5 hits to kill full hp B1
at Range 2100
B1 needs 3 hits
Mexas needs 4 hits
if we dont take moral damage into account:
MAX range
B1 need to fire 7 (6.89)shots fired to kill Mexas on average. This takes 7/8 of a minute (52.5 seconds).
Mexas needs to fire 7 (6.66)) shots to kill B1 on average. This takes 7/10 of a minute (42 seconds).
Basicaly if T-72B1 doesnt score the first hit, it is better to retreat.
Any other questions?

And why would we do that given that one tank has a autoloader and the other one doesn't.
mhhhhmmm.......

As i stated above:
Table of Results:
(number represents HP left)
T-72B1 Mexas
2 ........... 0
2 ........... 0
0 ........... 4
0 .......... 10
0 ........... 1
0 ........... 1
these are the test results. If B1 misses its first shot and Mexas doesnt, B1 will almost inevitably lose the fight. Conclusion B1 has some other features over Mexas but in 1v1 situation he will most likely lose. So whole your argument about injustice is irrelevant. If you really want to change point cost on Mexas then make it cost 80 (solely on 1v1 performance but i wouldn advice it).

Replay?
You need way more than 6 test. That's statistics 1x1.
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