Heavy tank rebalancing

codextero
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Heavy tank rebalancing

Postby codextero » Wed 23 Mar 2016 18:13

It's been said before, but Eugen does need to take a serious look at heavy tank pricing, heavy meaning tanks from 100-160 points. With few exceptions, all of them are in a really bad spot, caught between extremely price effective "mediums" at 60-90 points, and the extremely powerful but only moderately more expensive "superheavies" at 170 points+

The "medium" tank price buff around DLC 2 made those tanks useful, but the heavies immediately above them received much smaller price drops.

That leads to joke situations where Leopard 2A1 has only 1 more AV/AP than K1, but costs 20 points more

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The recent T-64BM buff really rammed this point home.

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You pay 30 points for +1 FAV and +2 SAV.

A universal price decrease for "heavies" is needed. Most of them are priced well against each other, but not against mediums and superheavies. This whole segment of the armory can be made relevant by price buffs.

T-64BM right now is clearly out of line, and Eugen has stated that it's planned to cost 100 points, so we can use that as the baseline.

From then on, tanks 100-120 points are 10 points cheaper, tanks 125-160 points is 15 points cheaper. Certain exceptions apply for tanks that are better/worse than their peers.

Leopard 2A1 : 105 > 95, Identical statst to 64BM, no autoloader, no ATGM.
Leopard 2A4 : 135 > 120
Challenger 1 Mk1 : 115 > 105
Challenger 1 Mk2 : 125 > 115
Challenger 1 Mk3 : 150 > 135
M1A1 : 120 > 105
M1A1 HA : 145 > 125. M1A1 HA is badly overpriced ATM
M1A1 HC : 160 > 145
STRV 121 : 160 > 145
K1A1 : 150 > 135
Leclerc : 160 > 150
Kyu Maru Shiki : 170>155 (this one is debatable, but Kyu Maru is more of an M1A1HC that shoots fast than a proper superheavy)

T-64BVI : 120 > 105
T-64BV : 130 > 115
T-80 BV : 120 > 100, basically the exact tank as T-64 BM. Perhaps something about the 80BV can be buffed to differentiate the tanks? My idea is to give it an Agona for 5 more points.
T-80A : 110 > 105
T-80U : 155 > 140
Obr 87 : 125 > 110
Obr 89 : 150 > 135
T-72M2 WILK : 125 > 110
T-72S : 135 > 120
PT-91 Twardy : 160 > 145
T-72M2 Moderna : 165 > 150
ZTZ-85-III : 145 > 135

Outside of this range, K1 could probably use a +5 point increase. Blue Dragons will be less reliant on it now that K1A1 and Kyu Maru are competitive. With M1A1 now more price effective, M1IP being mediocre becomes less of a problem.

Lastly, availability for these tanks is another issue, should they get more per card now that they are in a lower price point? This could be problematic if Japan gets 8 Kyu Maru or Sweden national running around with 10 Strv 121. Or the Soviets being able to field 8 T-80U's and so forth. A simple fix would be to simply remove the duplicate cards for Kyu maru, STRV 121, and T-80U.

I'm personally for increasing availability to fit their new price marks. This would make heavy tank cards more resilient against suicide ATGM planes, and create the dynamic where heavies still lose to superheavies for price, but superheavies are vulnerable to ATGM planes. You can now use heavy tanks as the tip of the spear without having to worry as much about running out of tanks, then holding the superheavy in reserve for when it's needed.

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Re: Heavy tank rebalancing

Postby urogard » Wed 23 Mar 2016 18:40

I have some personal reservations (esp the whole not giving 2 cards on kyu maru/strv thing)

but +1 overall

I'm giving this a perfect 5/7

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Razzmann
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Re: Heavy tank rebalancing

Postby Razzmann » Wed 23 Mar 2016 18:56

No need to make a list or propose anything. There is stuff like this coming in the next patch.

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vinz75
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Re: Heavy tank rebalancing

Postby vinz75 » Wed 23 Mar 2016 20:20

Razzmann wrote:No need to make a list or propose anything. There is stuff like this coming in the next patch.


Hello Razzmann,

I haven't seen that info on the board :? . Could you please point me to the place it is said ?

Thank you,

Vinz

codextero
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Re: Heavy tank rebalancing

Postby codextero » Wed 23 Mar 2016 20:21

Razzmann wrote:No need to make a list or propose anything. There is stuff like this coming in the next patch.


I don't get to sit in a channel with FLX, wouldn't know.

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Re: Heavy tank rebalancing

Postby KattiValk » Wed 23 Mar 2016 20:22

FLX posts on the Generals Steam thing. I believe he actually released a tentative price change list there.

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Razzmann
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Re: Heavy tank rebalancing

Postby Razzmann » Wed 23 Mar 2016 20:29

codextero wrote:
Razzmann wrote:No need to make a list or propose anything. There is stuff like this coming in the next patch.


I don't get to sit in a channel with FLX, wouldn't know.

Which is why I'm saying it, I sounded cockier than I wanted to, sorry :D

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Re: Heavy tank rebalancing

Postby throwaway » Wed 23 Mar 2016 20:34

don't reveal the sekrit club

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FLX
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Re: Heavy tank rebalancing

Postby FLX » Wed 23 Mar 2016 21:21

I don't have much time to engage in big balance discussions here but don't worry, I still read the main forum and the marshals still bring my attention on interesting things that I might miss.

Reviewing tanks prices is indeed part of the plan for the next patch, I just think your propositions are too heavy, I prefer to move slower but safer.
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Be nice or I nerf your favorite unit !

codextero
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Re: Heavy tank rebalancing

Postby codextero » Wed 23 Mar 2016 21:41

FLX wrote:I don't have much time to engage in big balance discussions here but don't worry, I still read the main forum and the marshals still bring my attention on interesting things that I might miss.

Reviewing tanks prices is indeed part of the plan for the next patch, I just think your propositions are too heavy, I prefer to move slower but safer.


That's good to hear.

The reason I went with "big changes" is that we all know the WG:RD dev cycle is slower than it used to be, and any patch could be the last one.

Optimally it would be small change > observe > small change again if needed.

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