USSR: The Good, the Bad and the Mediocre

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another505
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USSR: The Good, the Bad and the Mediocre

Postby another505 » Wed 6 Apr 2016 23:29

Is USSR that OP or competitive which people in the forums are crying.
In find the forum is split into 2 groups.

1. The USSR is superpower ingame, needs a damn good nerf , my USA needs more AMRAAM Multirole
2. USSR is underpower not competitve under MG3 horde, stop nerfing my Su-122-54 and BTR90

It is also quite fitting how the first group consist mostly the american lovers and the latter is the russian lovers

Most of the time, i play with Razzmann and some other friends(solo, kiheer, keldon, fadeway, sometimes face machenszieback( i can't spell your name)), and occasionally opponents that are almost top players with teams

we play both red (60percent) and blue (40percent)

I generally find USSR, the jack of all trade, master of none deck. Almost,(emphasize ALMOST) all its advantages are decent at best, For about 800 hours of gams, after DLC 2, I haven't play USSR non spec at all or face USSR to the state of calling it OP but I have called it dumb if they start spamming TOS and Smerch everywhere which I just generally hate how degenerate MLRS can be.


Here are some things that most people think USSR are OP/Very Good at at:

Smerch: Better to have 2 MLRS cluster launcher per card than just one. Having two can cover bigger area or use more often. And firing double the ammunition does more than damage

Mig-27- got nerfed, and blue has better AT planes like Kahu and so on. Red has better options like Seriam3

T72b1- meh at best, seriously. It gets hand down beat by k1, and at long range, the cheaper c2 mexas can beat it reliably
T-64bm- going get a nerf.

T-72bu - m1a2 is better. Autoloader doesnt really meant that much in high end tanks (except 12rof) cause when you are panicked, you already pulling your tank back to save it. You aren't going to risk it to 30 percent accuracy shot when it is panicked.


Spetsnaz - Been nerf so much, its pretty much mediocre. Endless MG3 or even minimi can scare them away in forest for their cheaper price. A few vehicles make them go away too. You can synergize with vdv, but blue can synergize jager/gev. 90 + cgm3 FIST, eyrx which can kill tanks by itself.

Ka-50 - is nice, 2nd most powerful AT, but being 150pts compare to longbow is just meh. Longbow having the exceptional recon just makes it able to do its job by itself. Ka-50 needs recon and its missiles can be distracted by LOS. Igla missiles are generally a waste cause who the heck uses 150pts helo for a2a that can be threatened by daps and ninjas.


Ka-52 - More like an unique unit. I dont see why USA players want a Ka-52 in their deck other than "prototype realism." Seriously, when was the last time you cried, "Shit, its a ka52! Turn off my radar!" ?? Its a2a capability its alright but ninja is so much better with that stealth and very small size bonus for opening and 40pts cheaper. The only reason I keep using Ka-52 while knowing know that they are mediocre and even somewhat overpriced is because its my favourite helicopter irl

Tunguska M- I honestly think they are rather mediocre. Most of the time you are using for its anti helo capability anyways. and being cost 100pts, when other people can call out crotale ,HQ7, chapa3, or even stormer. You are paying a lot just to get its anti helo capability. Its anti plane is nice, but ADATS, being 10pts more gets better missiles and can do the same against plane or even better in my experience, it has no RAD, faster reload time, same anti plane range with TungM's gun, and i've seen it two hitting a bomber all by itself multiple times while TungM's gun usually leave a medium to high ecm plane near death. It can also kill tanks which hilariously, very good at it even though you want to preserve it for AA duty only.


BMP-3 - got nerfed. Still one of the best IFV, but now needs to be spammed only useful in a few map sectors. Hopefully see m2a2 get an avail. buff... But BMP3 is basically USSR only usable IFV(excluding BTR90 the APC), that makes Moto 90 usable despite its terrible MG

Mi8MTV- a very good helo, but their is the lynx and panther with SNEBS that are much faster than mi-8mtv and brings comparable firepower


VDV 90- nice AT weapon, decent MG. But mediocre IFV, and MG is outclassed by most 20- 25pts shock. Its 24 AP, range and accuracy is very good, but actually pretty comparable to other launchers to PZ3 , APILAS, LAW80, PF 89. Its good, but not god tier that people dream of. Eyrx is god tier, better range, decent accuracy, higher AP, and laughably cheap on the infantry that can bring it..

Bukm1- there is patriots, 2 kinds of NEWA that is faster or better armored, Kubm4 with its huge avail. that is better than Bukm1


Mi24v- just tested it today with Razz, veteran mi24v vs Daps, in both scenario of flying towards each other or mi24v standing still against a flying DAP, they are pretty much equal. But mi24v pays a lot more, and I was taking them veteran.

Su27pu- its better in F15c in turn radius. Fuel values will be fixed . I generally think F15c with its OP vulcan is better since it can panic anything in a gun run, and rafale is still better than PU.


Mig25pd - a very nice plane, but worse than elite F2, RDI and danish F16.

The multiroles Mig29m and Su27m
when was the last time you've seen these two planes? Almost never. These MRAAMS cost a lot of pts and generally not worth it
Su27m is 200pts, f18c is 160 with 2 per cards. you can suicide f18c to kill super heavies and make pts back. Su27m can die killing one, you lose pts and already the lost the card.

I mean, really if the USA community really wants soo much MRAAM on every plane they get, that hypes the plane price 20 pts and maybe even avail. reduction. Its actually make the air tab worse. F15D with MRAAM? The only reason it is appealing because USA has no other good strike bombers so you are going to take it anyways. If USA gets a good HE aardvark, i doubt people use F15D with MRAAM other than Eagle fans stroking their freedom erection.

Almost everyone uses Mig27 over Su27m, because it is not worth the card and price when its main job its going to kill tanks anyways.

So most advantages that USSR brings are decent at most. The only 3 things I would say USSR is better than others are

BTR90 - a decline of being spammed after the price nerf. Is good in opening, is the red's hachi nani shiki. Possibly be furthered nerf because protos get 1 per card only.

Spetz GRU- Really one of the best Recon SF, no doubt. But being 4 per card, their influence in the game is rather limited. Special Jedo 90 of czech is the best SF recon i would say.


Tos - the only thing i really want to see a nerf other than price, but thats an entirely different discussion


So the only exceptional good thing is the motorized opening of GRU in BTR90, which isn't unbeatable to face against or usable to take this combo everywhere. Not every map supports a motorized start. A well mechanized, air assault, or tank heavy opening push can take it out. And also again, their avail. is limited, the advantage is short term only

Things that USSR sucks at

Infantry grind- completely terrible and have to rely on TOS to do it. I play VDV deck regularly and can't out beat the mg3 horde in a pure infantry grind. Moto90 has the worst MG ingame, and morskaya is mediocre , only reason you see morskaya is because of BTR90. Its a very huge problem when the game is so infantry centric and you can't win at it. Most maps that are played currently, 1v1- 4v4 are infantry centric map where it has a lot of forest or lots of towns to be fought over.


Helo assault- Mi24v is just really expensive, and all your helo transport are slow or expensive.

So, USSR is just jack of all trade, master of none. It can do a lot of stuffs but none of them really well.
if you have a team or just group of friends, it is better to synergize your decks advantages.

In small games, USSR is generally bad because it focuses on infantry and medium tanks
In team games, it can bring a lot of stuffs to help, but again, a well EB and RD deck can do a waaay better job in many maps

I think why most people take USSR is because they aren't sure where they are going and what the teammates are going to be doing.
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Re: USSR: The Good, the Bad and the Mediocre

Postby Razzmann » Wed 6 Apr 2016 23:32

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I'm inclined to agree with most of it.

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Re: USSR: The Good, the Bad and the Mediocre

Postby Erich Honecker » Wed 6 Apr 2016 23:43

Nice thread, agree with all the above. In the current game meta USSR are mediocre nation, with many gaps. In the small games USSR is meh nation what cant deal with bluefor or even redfor spam.

P.S TOS now is not very effective as before, not need another nerf
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Re: USSR: The Good, the Bad and the Mediocre

Postby DeckCheney » Thu 7 Apr 2016 00:02

Mi-24VP + K + V + Mi-8MTV = Awesome sauce

I don't actually think anything in the USSR lineup is OP at this point- everything has been nerfed to death yet NATO fan boys refuse to give buffs to some underperforming units.

Examples- Su-24, Il-102, T-55s/62s, BMP/BMD-2, Morski Pheyotha, Strelas, PT-76, MiG-23s, regular Mi-8 Transports, BTR line.

Outside of the air-tab; many of these units are generic to RedFor and giving them a universal weapons stat/price buff would increase the playability/cost effectiveness of lots of underperforming nations.

___

I don't understand why people are complaining about VDV '90 when Paras '90/Rima '85 are flat superior.

The only issue is Canadian Airborne costing the same with worse RPG stats/airborne transports. This is however made up by Canadian Airborne being available in all specs with 10pts wheeled transports.
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Re: USSR: The Good, the Bad and the Mediocre

Postby Fade2Gray » Thu 7 Apr 2016 00:11

DeckCheney wrote:Mi-24VP + K + V + Mi-8MTV = Awesome sauce


Except when you do it against someone with a clue.


:mrgreen:
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Re: USSR: The Good, the Bad and the Mediocre

Postby DeckCheney » Thu 7 Apr 2016 00:15

Fade2Gray wrote:
DeckCheney wrote:Mi-24VP + K + V + Mi-8MTV = Awesome sauce


Except when you do it against someone with a clue.


:mrgreen:


It's potent regardless. That much kill potential flying around has the ability to wipe out an army- Specially when micro'd
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Re: USSR: The Good, the Bad and the Mediocre

Postby Solo » Thu 7 Apr 2016 00:25

I will preface by saying that I have 1500+ games, 60/40 Blue/Red split, and play USSR approximately 75% of the time I play Red.

I am in a mix of the camps. I do think USSR is a superpower and I don't think it should be nerfed, though I don't think it needs much in the way of buffs, either.

-Su-122-54 nerf should be reverted.
-BTR-90 is balanced in current state.
-MG3 is overpowered, pick one: 1) Nerf MG3, 2) Buff all other MGs, or 3) MG3 adds +5 points to any unit with it.

-I would be OK with Ka-50 moved to recon section, though it would have to be classified as "Ka-50N," have Very Good Optics and not Exceptional, be 1997 prototype, and all PACT players would have to hereby swear to never suggest Longbow nerfs henceforth.

-T-72B1 is good all-around tank and I see no reason to change it. T-72B and most tanks that are +10 for TGM should be reduced by 5 points. The tanks 110-150 points are the ones that need help.

-M1A2 damn well better be better than T-72BU because SovKor's extra T-90 card.

-Planes: Mig-29M is crap indeed, cluster planes in general need AP buff to be usable. Su-27M is amazing since it has more accuracy on missiles because it starts at higher veterancy and it never dies because 50% ECM, 300 turn rate, and more range on missiles than F/A-18C, not even mentioning R-77s. It's not a question of Mig-27 or Su-27M because you should be using both like I do and know their specific uses. F2, RDI, and F-16 should not be able to be taken 2 at elite, this is just dumb... considering USA 75pt F-4J is 1 elite, so nerf all those planes to veteran like Mig-25.

-Morskaya and Motostrelki do need buffs to be usable or MG3 horde needs to be toned down.

-Soviet needs something rerolled into 10 pt wheeled infantry transport with no KPVT. That's one of the major reasons why Soviet infantry fighting is not cost-effective because everybody else pays 10 points to get infantry there fast.

-Mi-8MTVs and Mi-24s being bulky and expensive is flavor because they are strong and useful.

Those are some of my thoughts. I think there are some legitimate complaints with the USSR deck though I think some of your post is needlessly complaining about things that are fine.

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Re: USSR: The Good, the Bad and the Mediocre

Postby throwaway » Thu 7 Apr 2016 00:27

Comparing t-72b1 to k1 and 24v to dap? Might as well complain that akula isn't longbow and gevaermenn aren't jaeger. The poor scandi infantry! So mediocre!

I don't think USSR is OP atm, but it still grates when I see some comparisons :lol:

I think a lot of the strength of USSR comes from workhorse units that generally tend to get skipped in these comparisons. Things like btr-d, zhalo (funny how vickers used to be a highlight of CMW but everybody ignored zhalo which was basically better even pre-buff), VDV-90 (I think you vastly underestimate the power of reliable 875m AT in your post). And of course the lack of weaknesses which you do mention. No other faction has that and it's a huge advantage unless you can limit yourself to a certain job. Both of those things would be big by themselves but then on top of that USSR has the standard unicorns that you would expect any faction to have.
Last edited by throwaway on Thu 7 Apr 2016 00:41, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: USSR: The Good, the Bad and the Mediocre

Postby Markenzwieback » Thu 7 Apr 2016 00:34

another505 wrote: Most of the time, i play with Razzmann and some other friends(solo, kiheer, keldon, fadeway, sometimes face machenszieback( i can't spell your name)), and occasionally opponents that are almost top players with teams

:lol:

---

On topic: One of the friends that sticks around with me and that you guys have played against as well, has a rather strong opinion on this topic (and its not favorable for USSR). While mine is not that harsh, I tend to agree that the USSR is too strong in certain aspects of the game compared to other coalitions.

Not going to discuss all units you talked about in further detail, but the BMP-3 needs to be mentioned. Using them can be area denial for weaker nations/coalitions simply because there is no ATGM to effectively counter them. That makes it hard to play against Soviets on any open ground despite the (unneeded) nerf that the last patch brought. (Yes, I know there is smoke to block LOS.)

Further I would argue that besides good line infantry, the USSR has very little to complain in comparison to other coalitions. Finding a weak spot in terms of missing capabilities is pretty hard and gets even harder when taking SOVKOR in consideration.

From our experience though, playing against USSR mostly boils down to this:

another505 wrote:[...] I have called it dumb if they start spamming TOS and Smerch everywhere which I just generally hate how degenerate MLRS can be.


Try anything against good USSR players that threatens their positions and map control: they bring up Smerch and/or Burratino (other discussion, but it still influences this topic) and good bye to any decent defensive line or offensive action. While this might be depending on the situation, it seems to be the regular from our BLUFOR games (same as you, we tend to play both sides almost equally). It has happened too often that a well won sector gets counter-attacked and cleared within minutes due to these two and their impact on the battlefield.

This is not a problem with USSR alone but regards to a wider issue (artillery balanced and cluster MLRS). A nerf (or rather call it bringing it back into line) of the BM-30 to MARS stats would help quite a bit. In addition the TOS-1 nerf you mentioned is in dire need (even more so than the Smerch actually). It still is the one-click stopping tool, even if you spread units out, the stun radius is enough to do its job. PKM / M60 buff in exchange for TOS nerf please...

With the unicorn units and derps (T-64BM e.g.) fixed or brought onto a reasonable level (BTR-90 price), I personally think the USSR is still strong, but should not be counted as overpowered. At the current state, it is closer to being that though (T-64BMs EVERYWHERE :lol:). We will have to see what the next patch brings with it in that regard.
Last edited by Markenzwieback on Thu 7 Apr 2016 00:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: USSR: The Good, the Bad and the Mediocre

Postby JBravo » Thu 7 Apr 2016 00:36

I agree with just about everything, my only problem with the US is the gimmick units (ATACMS, Patriot) and weird, confusing or illogical decisions.
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