Proposal: Shack Training for American Riflemen?

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wargamer1985
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Re: Proposal: Shack Training for American Riflemen?

Postby wargamer1985 » Thu 7 Apr 2016 19:42

animalmother wrote:I think it would be a better idea to just give LR(w/+5 price nerf) and LR 90 shock training. Here the US would get Shock inf in most of the specs where it matters(motorized, airborne) while not overbuffing US mech by giving them large quantities of shock infantry. You could also make a pretty good argument for authenticity as the US extensively used light infantry throughout the cold war, and they could represent the renowned 82nd and 101st divisions. Although their combat training is very similar, I think we can make an exception ;)

LR '90 would not need a price Nerf with shock status, LR '75 could go to 15 points with shock and both infantry units would become useful, but not to the point where they become OP, 25 points for a longer-ranged but weaker Panzergrenadier wouldn't be overpowered at all. And LR '75 at shock would make a great counter to Mot-Schutzen '75, as one has a better MG + Better AP and the other has an ATGM. Plus, it would give US forces a 10 man Shock squad in the infantry tab which it currently lacks.
Last edited by wargamer1985 on Thu 7 Apr 2016 19:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Proposal: Shack Training for American Riflemen?

Postby animalmother » Thu 7 Apr 2016 19:45

wargamer1985 wrote:LR '90 would not need a price Nerf with shock status, LR '75 could go to 15 points with shock and both infantry units would become certain useful, but not to the point where they become OP, 25 points for a longer-ranged but weaker Panzergrenadier wouldn'the be overpowered at all. And LR '75 at shock would make a great counter to Mot-Schutzen '75, as one has a better MG + Better AP and the other has an ATGM. Plus, it would give US forces a 10 man Shock squad in the infantry tab which it currently lacks.

I completely agree.
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Re: Proposal: Shack Training for American Riflemen?

Postby KattiValk » Thu 7 Apr 2016 20:02

RoadkillRodger wrote:Giving rifles 90 minimi would only bring them to base motostrelki levels- at 15 points they'd still be quite cost-ineffective.
Care to elaborate?

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Re: Proposal: Shack Training for American Riflemen?

Postby RoadkillRodger » Thu 7 Apr 2016 20:08

animalmother wrote:Care to elaborate?


If you go to the spreadsheet and give the riflemen minimi mg stats and a min cost of 20 (90s variant only), their cost/dps is on par with base motostrelki. The extra 5 points in unit cost relative to base rifles makes a huge difference

animalmother wrote:
wargamer1985 wrote:LR '90 would not need a price Nerf with shock status, LR '75 could go to 15 points with shock and both infantry units would become certain useful (...) Plus, it would give US forces a 10 man Shock squad in the infantry tab which it currently lacks.

I completely agree.


Agreed, but:

I'd argue that you could buff both to shock without price nerfs to either unit. LR are already limited by avail + specialization, and their AT is very bad to begin with. My interest here being in a change that gives the US a viable 10 pt infantry squad.

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Re: Proposal: Shack Training for American Riflemen?

Postby KattiValk » Thu 7 Apr 2016 20:11

RoadkillRodger wrote:If you go to the spreadsheet and give the riflemen minimi mg stats and a min cost of 20 (90s variant only), their cost/dps is on par with base motostrelki.
Which is why you leave them at 15 points? A price nerf isn't necessary given how bad the AT4 is and also how overpriced Bradley's are right now.

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Re: Proposal: Shack Training for American Riflemen?

Postby RoadkillRodger » Thu 7 Apr 2016 20:23

kiheerSEDMAN wrote:
RoadkillRodger wrote:If you go to the spreadsheet and give the riflemen minimi mg stats and a min cost of 20 (90s variant only), their cost/dps is on par with base motostrelki.
Which is why you leave them at 15 points? A price nerf isn't necessary given how bad the AT4 is and also how overpriced Bradley's are right now.


The cost includes the transport, so that is without a price nerf. They're really that bad, ditto on motostelki 90.

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Re: Proposal: Shack Training for American Riflemen?

Postby remilia019 » Thu 7 Apr 2016 20:29

animalmother wrote:I think it would be a better idea to just give LR(w/+5 price nerf) and LR 90 shock training. Here the US would get Shock inf in most of the specs where it matters(motorized, airborne) while not overbuffing US mech by giving them large quantities of shock infantry. You could also make a pretty good argument for authenticity as the US extensively used light infantry throughout the cold war, and they could represent the renowned 82nd and 101st. Although their combat training is very similar, I think we can make an exception ;)

Using Light Rifleman instead, I like this idea
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Re: Proposal: Shack Training for American Riflemen?

Postby RoadkillRodger » Thu 7 Apr 2016 21:00

It sounds good on paper, although I can't recall if the LR have access to a 5 pt transport. If not, any benefit from the change would be lost. Veterancy bumps give a ~10% performance boost, while for a 10 point squad a 10-point (vs 5 pt) transport increases the cost to call the unit in by ~30%.

t;dr good idea as long as base LR don't get a price nerf and come in 5 pt transports.

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Re: Proposal: Shack Training for American Riflemen?

Postby Razzmann » Thu 7 Apr 2016 21:03

You're trying too hard to give other nations a counter to Jäger that are just as cost effective. That's not a good solution.

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Re: Proposal: Shack Training for American Riflemen?

Postby RoadkillRodger » Thu 7 Apr 2016 21:23

Razzmann wrote:You're trying too hard to give other nations a counter to Jäger that are just as cost effective. That's not a good solution.


My idea wasn't to give them a "solution" so much as an "answer". ie, something you could call out to match (not defeat) mg3 lines, which would buy time to leverage a deck's advantages. I viewed base rifles as ideal because their poor AT means that their role would remain limited to fighting other infantry, unlike jagers/gav which can also deal with medium tanks fairly handily.

I really am not sure how else to address the issue, particularly for US. Everything comes back to forests at some point, and the US has very few options in that area.

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