[Non-included nation] South Africa (and possibly others in region)

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Killertomato
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Re: [Non-included nation] South Africa (and possibly others in region)

Postby Killertomato » Mon 6 Feb 2017 22:22

Eukie wrote:No, that's the original Bismark turret. If you look at photos of the TTD you'll see a lot of differences. They do look alike though, but that's because West Germany helped develop both, the bastards.


Yeah, it's kind of... squished on Bismark. Why even add an Olifant turret option then? Cost? Lulz?

Eukie wrote:For 120 mm candidates I've found three; the TTD, the Bismark, and the Olifant Mk1B Optimal. The Bismark and Optimal are probably more realistically 105 mm, but on the other hand they're also more authentically South African and/or in timeframe.


TTD is SA's only shot at a 'true' 3rd gen MBT... and isn't it 1994 and thus in timeframe? We operate in a world with K1A1s and K9s and Ka-52s.

Mk.1B Optimal looks like a heck of an armor upgrade, so there's a role to play there. Bismark is a unique capability and there should be as much of that as possible.

Do you have any idea what they were shooting out of those gun tubes?

Anyway, based on what we have now, South African Tank Tab, full size:

Olifant Mk. 1 (1978)- 20-pounder gun, upgraded engine and turret drives over Centurion Mk. 5, possibly a commander's handheld LRF.

Olifant Mk. 1A (1983)- 105mm gun, LRF, upgraded sights.

Olifant Mk. 1B (1991... did see 1985 at one point)- Mk. 1A + improved mobility, armor upgrade, some sort of fire control system? South African Super M60 equivalent.

Olifant Mk. 1B Optimal (199x)- Mk. 1B + heavier armor, 105mm gun, fancy pants AP shell like everyone else has.

TTD 105mm (1994) - Basically an M1IP.

TTD 120mm (1994) - Basically an M1A1.

Bismark (1982)- 9 AV M60A3 on wheels.

Eland Mk. 7 (1979)- 90mm gun, 2 SS.11 missiles, can't fire on the move, bulletproof. Pretty standard armored car.

Rooikat 105 (1994)- 105mm gun, thermals, full FCS, etc. Think M8 AGS on wheels.

Regular Rooikat could also go here, or in vehicles, or in the recon tab, or in all 3.
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

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Re: [Non-included nation] South Africa (and possibly others in region)

Postby Eukie » Mon 6 Feb 2017 23:02

Killertomato wrote:TTD is SA's only shot at a 'true' 3rd gen MBT... and isn't it 1994 and thus in timeframe? We operate in a world with K1A1s and K9s and Ka-52s.


Yes. The TTD is also a technology demonstrator, and therefore never intended for production, though.

Killertomato wrote:Do you have any idea what they were shooting out of those gun tubes?


OE 105 F1 (HE, HE-T)
M416 (WP-T)
M393 (HEP-T)
M456 (HEAT-T)
M833 (APFSDS)
M735 (APFSDS-T)
OFUM PH 105 F1 (Smoke)
OECL 105 F1 (Illuminating)
OFL 105 G2 (APFSDS-T)
L-35 (HESH-T)
L-52 (APDS-T)
L64A4 (APFSDS-T)

Killertomato wrote:Anyway, based on what we have now, South African Tank Tab, full size:

Olifant Mk. 1 (1978)- 20-pounder gun, upgraded engine and turret drives over Centurion Mk. 5, possibly a commander's handheld LRF.

Upgraded sights too. GlobalSecurity.com, which isn't always trustworthy, claims it has the FCS of Israeli Sho't tanks.

Olifant Mk. 1A (1983)- 105mm gun, LRF, upgraded sights.

Olifant Mk. 1B (1991... did see 1985 at one point)- Mk. 1A + improved mobility, armor upgrade, some sort of fire control system? South African Super M60 equivalent.

Digital FCS with integrated laser rangefinders, passive nightvision, and an integral system of diagnostics and TV screens.

Olifant Mk. 1B Optimal (199x)- Mk. 1B + heavier armor, 105mm gun, fancy pants AP shell like everyone else has.

TTD 105mm (1994) - Basically an M1IP.

TTD 120mm (1994) - Basically an M1A1.

Bismark (1982)- 9 AV M60A3 on wheels.

Eland Mk. 7 (1979)- 90mm gun, 2 SS.11 missiles, can't fire on the move, bulletproof. Pretty standard armored car.

The Eland is a recon vehicle. It's already in-game as the French AML 90 in the French recon tab.

Rooikat 105 (1994)- 105mm gun, thermals, full FCS, etc. Think M8 AGS on wheels.

More of a recon vehicle, though.


There's also the Semel and if you want a cheap support tank, the Comet.

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Re: [Non-included nation] South Africa (and possibly others in region)

Postby Killertomato » Mon 6 Feb 2017 23:21

Eukie wrote:
Yes. The TTD is also a technology demonstrator, and therefore never intended for production, though.


That's hardly unprecedented- MBT-70, Marder VTS-1, PT-85... It fits right in, and unlike those, it's pretty necessary. SA's in trouble if the best tank they have is a Super M60.

Eukie wrote:OE 105 F1 (HE, HE-T)
M416 (WP-T)
M393 (HEP-T)
M456 (HEAT-T)
M833 (APFSDS)
M735 (APFSDS-T)
OFUM PH 105 F1 (Smoke)
OECL 105 F1 (Illuminating)
OFL 105 G2 (APFSDS-T)
L-35 (HESH-T)
L-52 (APDS-T)
L64A4 (APFSDS-T)


M833???? When did they get that?

Eukie wrote:Upgraded sights too. GlobalSecurity.com, which isn't always trustworthy, claims it has the FCS of Israeli Sho't tanks.


Sho't didn't have an FCS at all until the early '80s, so I doubt it.

Eukie wrote:Digital FCS with integrated laser rangefinders, passive nightvision, and an integral system of diagnostics and TV screens.


Yeah, SA Super M60-equivalent. Handy!


Eukie wrote:The Eland is a recon vehicle. It's already in-game as the French AML 90 in the French recon tab.

More of a recon vehicle, though.


AMX-10RC variants are in REC and TNK, I figured there'd be Rooikats and Elands in REC and TNK too. Rooikat 105 is specifically one hell of a capability to have.

Eukie wrote:There's also the Semel and if you want a cheap support tank, the Comet.


Semel, maybe, depending on what Olifant looks like. Comet is firmly in VEH.
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

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Re: [Non-included nation] South Africa (and possibly others in region)

Postby Eukie » Mon 6 Feb 2017 23:52

Killertomato wrote:
Eukie wrote:OE 105 F1 (HE, HE-T)
M416 (WP-T)
M393 (HEP-T)
M456 (HEAT-T)
M833 (APFSDS)
M735 (APFSDS-T)
OFUM PH 105 F1 (Smoke)
OECL 105 F1 (Illuminating)
OFL 105 G2 (APFSDS-T)
L-35 (HESH-T)
L-52 (APDS-T)
L64A4 (APFSDS-T)


M833???? When did they get that?


My mistake, that's a list of ammunition the Olifants can fire, not ammunition they actually had. They did produce their own L52 ammunition though. Other than that, it's hard to tell. But as a first approximation, assume they have access to all 105 mm ammunition Israel had access to.

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Re: [Non-included nation] South Africa (and possibly others in region)

Postby Mitchverr » Tue 7 Feb 2017 00:02

IIRC doesnt eugen have a system of "when in doubt, give them lend-lease ammo from the USA"? :lol:
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Re: [Non-included nation] South Africa (and possibly others in region)

Postby Eukie » Tue 7 Feb 2017 01:23

The political situation with South Africa is a bit special. While most BLUFOR countries in Wargame could expect lots of US help, South Africa was almost unique among non-communist countries in that the United States did genuinely not want to give them any material help. Short of the Warsaw Pact rolling into South-West Africa, the United States wouldn't be giving any material or technological aid to South Africa. Even then, they might see deploying their own troops into SWA or blocading Cuba as diplomatically better options than outright giving weapons to Apartheid.

Israel didn't have much problems trading weapons and technology with South Africa though, and Germany was willing to treat the arms embargo as more of a polite suggestion.

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Re: [Non-included nation] South Africa (and possibly others in region)

Postby FrangibleCover » Tue 7 Feb 2017 03:00

Eukie wrote:Israel didn't have much problems trading weapons and technology with South Africa though, and Germany was willing to treat the arms embargo as more of a polite suggestion.

And Portugal! http://mg.co.za/article/1998-03-13-pik- ... ng-dispute

...Wait, that's not something to be proud of.

More seriously, Portugal (NATO member, 105mm tanks, would need fancy-pants ammo if added), Israel (major US ally, 105mm and 120mm tanks, has fancy-pants ammo in game) and Germany (NATO member, 105mm and 120mm tanks, produces own fancy-pants ammo) all individually provide sufficient explanation for upgraded rounds 'falling off the back of a lorry' and arming South Africa's top-end armour. If it's needed they can have it.
What if Wargame stuck to timeframe?
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Re: [Non-included nation] South Africa (and possibly others in region)

Postby Killertomato » Tue 7 Feb 2017 08:44

South African AP could really just follow Israeli standards, IMO. They could always just air-freight a couple tons of uranium over in payment.
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

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Re: [Non-included nation] South Africa (and possibly others in region)

Postby chykka » Tue 7 Feb 2017 10:11

With such Co-operation we could have an Israeli Coalition on our hands.
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Re: [Non-included nation] South Africa (and possibly others in region)

Postby Eukie » Tue 7 Feb 2017 10:24

South Africa and Israel would complement rather nicely. Perhaps too nicely, since Israel is already immensely strong.

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