[Non-included nation] PORTUGAL

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FrangibleCover
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Re: [Non-included nation] PORTUGAL

Postby FrangibleCover » Sat 7 Jan 2017 20:55

A few other things I've spotted:
  • No Command Jeep in the main list. I feel sure the Cournil could make another appearance in the deck ;)
  • No Cat-C recon infantry. This'll upset Eugen and molnibalage. The Precursores could get the BV '75 loadout but I get the impression you want the RPG-7 to be a rare weapon. The M20 is horrible so that implies the M72 but by then you've basically got a Green Jackets equivalent with a good MG and possibly a better rifle. Kept as they are they overlap with antizombies_boy's Cazadores de Montana. What're the odds of a regular training recon squad instead, given that the Paras already compose half of the infantry tab :lol: (I am more than a little upset to see Portugal did away with the Caçadores designation prior to 1980. Caçador brown berets for the Comandos?)
  • Since the FAL isn't being used at the moment and you say it was admired for its lightness but considered unreliable how about giving it to the M40 team, since their weapon is very heavy and they ideally never be in a position where they fire their rifles? They could also get SMGs but I don't think they should be able to beat anything in a housefight.
    Image
  • It's a bloody terrible picture but is this your V-200 SS-11? It's labelled as the V-700 which could be pure confusion or could be an indication that a similar set up was used by the V-700 prototype, which could be given Swingfire SWIG from the UK to create a pretty mediocre wheeled TD (but better than the SS-11 one if Eugen get harsh about the M113s in moto). Looks as though it has a pintle AA MG though.

I think having the Cournil in as many roles as it could handle and putting as much random crap on the Chaimite chassis as it'll hold will aid community acceptance of Portugal as 'not just another cookie-cutter Blue minor', not that you've not done a sterling job of that already. The FAL change is just for a bit of variety, Eugen might not fancy it on the basis that it marginally increases modelling costs.
Last edited by FrangibleCover on Sat 7 Jan 2017 23:53, edited 1 time in total.
What if Wargame stuck to timeframe?
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Re: [Non-included nation] PORTUGAL

Postby Awesomer » Sat 7 Jan 2017 21:14

Broth3r wrote:Well... why not both?

I used to argue for an Anglo-Portuguese Alliance, not only because it's the historically more relevant coalition, but frankly, because I wanted to escape from the normal Iberia trope. Let's face it, there's plenty of people out there who see Portugal as just Spain's windshield, or a province of it. Having an Iberian coalition on the game would only reinforce that.

But that's not Wargame's target audience. People who bother playing this game have at least enough knowledge of geography to know that's not the case (or at least that's what i want to believe). And, of course, there is more than enough historical justification for an Iberian coalition. So, why not both? There's plenty of nations in the game with multiple coalitions, and it'd only add to the variety, and thus value, of the game.



Oi meu Irmao (Oh my Brother ;) ),

I love the idea of having Portugal in wargame (I'm of Portuguese background myself), but I thought Eugen was not going to add any new nations... If that is the case, why do this? Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but I see this useful for mods only.

Unless... I know there is 2 secret projects Eugen is working on, is a Mediterranean expansion in the works? What is the future of wargame?

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Re: [Non-included nation] PORTUGAL

Postby antizombies_boy » Sat 7 Jan 2017 23:59

Awesomer wrote:
Oi meu Irmao (Oh my Brother ;) ),

I love the idea of having Portugal in wargame (I'm of Portuguese background myself), but I thought Eugen was not going to add any new nations... If that is the case, why do this? Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but I see this useful for mods only.

Unless... I know there is 2 secret projects Eugen is working on, is a Mediterranean expansion in the works? What is the future of wargame?


I don't know what is your source to say that, but I'll really like a Mediterranean expansion ("Wargame: The Flaming Sea" maybe?). Just think about all the forces that could be represented in the game is amazing.

Bluefor: (West to east) Portugal (it's not in Mediterranean but is close), Spain, Morocco, Italy, Tunisia, Greece, Turkey, Israel (Included) and more,

Redfor: (West to east) Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Yugoslavia (Included), Bulgaria and Romania (close to Mediterranean influence), Syria and Lebanon.

Maybe Eugen decides to move the time frame to year 2000... who knows? This is only a sweet dream.

Forgive me if some african nation is in wrong side*

About Spanish "Cazadores de Montaña" shock recon squad, it's one of the most representative light infantries of Spain (Spain is geographically really accidented). In COM coalition you can see 2 special forces teams identical, and it's not a problem to play them. Thinking about Portugal and Spain won't be (at 1st sight) at same coalition, let Portugal keep it recon tab.

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Re: [Non-included nation] PORTUGAL

Postby Awesomer » Sun 8 Jan 2017 00:15

Eugen systems main website is my source. They don't specify about what the projects are about though... Which is why I was asking.

I hope they do as you have suggested, add in those Mediterranean nations and increase the time frame. This would a lot of new units!

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Re: [Non-included nation] PORTUGAL

Postby antizombies_boy » Sun 8 Jan 2017 00:31

Awesomer wrote:Eugen systems main website is my source. They don't specify about what the projects are about though... Which is why I was asking.

I hope they do as you have suggested, add in those Mediterranean nations and increase the time frame. This would a lot of new units!


Yeah! Another consequence of aumenting time frame to 2000, it's that currently Wargame: Red Dragon nations would appear in this "new" Wargame some nation, actually "low tier", will turns more interesting. One example could be Denmark: With a new time frame they will develope the NASSAMs improved versions and the danish Leopard 2A5DK would appear in the game (it was acquired in 1999 I think).

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Re: [Non-included nation] PORTUGAL

Postby FrangibleCover » Sun 8 Jan 2017 02:21

Awesomer wrote:I love the idea of having Portugal in wargame (I'm of Portuguese background myself), but I thought Eugen was not going to add any new nations... If that is the case, why do this? Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but I see this useful for mods only.

So far as I have seen Eugen have only said 'no announced plans' in regard to future DLC. Now, every day that they don't say anything means the chances of them announcing a DLC renaissance grow more remote but they've not officially SAID no so we toil away. Besides, I don't know about anyone else but I find this research and learning and suggesting things a lot of fun.

Unless... I know there is 2 secret projects Eugen is working on, is a Mediterranean expansion in the works? What is the future of wargame?

The fact that there are two of them makes me think that one is either Wargame 4 (Probably Med focused) or Wargame: European Escalation II with a big engine/graphics overhaul that obsoletes 90% of the work they've already done, which actually makes a bit more sense with the long dev time and the secrecy. I can't see them going for two new IPs or anything in the more traditional RTS format like maybe RUSE II after the disappointment that AoA seems to have been (How would I know, I didn't buy it, I don't play RTS games!).

antizombies_boy wrote:Yeah! Another consequence of aumenting time frame to 2000, it's that currently Wargame: Red Dragon nations would appear in this "new" Wargame some nation, actually "low tier", will turns more interesting. One example could be Denmark: With a new time frame they will develope the NASSAMs improved versions and the danish Leopard 2A5DK would appear in the game (it was acquired in 1999 I think).

I favour stopping here at 1991 before things get any stupider with prototypes and going WIDE with the next game. Bodge all of the previous Wargame's terrain sets into a single game and include some Middle-Eastern and Mediterranean sets and then you're able to allow all of the current factions and a bunch of possible DLC ones their place in the sun.

Alternatively, bring the game forward to an alternate 1995 where the Cold War between President Zombie-Reagan (on his fourth consecutive term) and General Secretary Genericov (Leader after the usual unspecified coup by Kremlin hardliners in 198X so that we can pretend Glasnost and Perestroika never happened). Military development has continued apace and all of the current prototype units were finished and entered active service along with a huge variety of other prototype units that would have entered service by then and all the late 80s stuff that got ignored in favour of muh supertanks. Then you stop all development dead and don't have prototype weapons systems from beyond the cut-off date so that you can't get into arguments about what should and should not be included, or at least those arguments are all frontloaded into the fortnight of release and you can crack on with normal balance arguments as quickly as possible.

2000 is too far forward. The Soviet Union has been gone for ten years and we've got no idea what they'd have come up with. We know what the US came up with and honestly, F-22 + FGM-148 + Patriot PACs + huge quantities of M1A2s is not going to be fun for anyone to play against, even if Whereversville did get a bunch of cheap Leopards because the Cold War ended (which they can't in this timeline because the Cold War hasn't ended, unless it has in which case who are we fighting?)

antizombies_boy wrote:About Spanish "Cazadores de Montaña" shock recon squad, it's one of the most representative light infantries of Spain (Spain is geographically really accidented). In COM coalition you can see 2 special forces teams identical, and it's not a problem to play them. Thinking about Portugal and Spain won't be (at 1st sight) at same coalition, let Portugal keep it recon tab.

I don't want to change Cazadores at all, they're fine as is. It's just another piece of pressure on Portugal getting shock recce that will need to be Cat-C and therefore pretty bad anyway. I know a cracking recon tab is part of Portugal's flavour but a the ToW recon tab being 2 squads of shock and 2 squads of naval SF is highly redundant. Portugal is easier to change the proposal for than the nations already in game but I suppose if Broth3r's heart is set on the Precursores then we could advocate for the Green Jackets to go to regular (The Rifles are borderline regular anyway) and then NORFORCE to go to Militia (They're reservists in real life and seem to be mainly concerned with setting up OPs rather than fighting for information) to free up room in Commonwealth.
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Re: [Non-included nation] PORTUGAL

Postby Broth3r » Mon 9 Jan 2017 06:34

FrangibleCover wrote:
Lumi wrote:Yes, i like the idea of having the Anglo-Portuguese coalition in-game. Good recon infantry and good shock infantry with transports would be greatly appreciated by the UK. As well as the excellent Portuguese field cuisine.

Yeah, to represent the effects of Portugal's main contribution to international cuisine the British CVs in Treaty of Windsor decks should be rated Rookie because the officers have all gotten hammered on the Port :D. That or rate them Elite because after 5 years of Eton and a whole case of Garrafeira there is literally nothing that can stun a man :lol:.

:lol: Good banter, mate.

And I make mine most of your words in the last two pages. I've been quite busy, so thank you for answering most of those questions, because I'd have said pretty much the same you did.

FrangibleCover wrote:A few other things I've spotted:
  • No Command Jeep in the main list. I feel sure the Cournil could make another appearance in the deck ;)

Done. There's a few pictures of them with radios, which should suffice.

FrangibleCover wrote:
  • No Cat-C recon infantry. This'll upset Eugen and molnibalage. The Precursores could get the BV '75 loadout but I get the impression you want the RPG-7 to be a rare weapon. The M20 is horrible so that implies the M72 but by then you've basically got a Green Jackets equivalent with a good MG and possibly a better rifle. Kept as they are they overlap with antizombies_boy's Cazadores de Montana. What're the odds of a regular training recon squad instead, given that the Paras already compose half of the infantry tab :lol: (I am more than a little upset to see Portugal did away with the Caçadores designation prior to 1980. Caçador brown berets for the Comandos?)

  • It's a very Wargame-y problem here: I couldn't find any dedicated recon unit, or even any designation for ad-hoc ones, that could fit the bill - short of an extremely generic "Secção de Reconhecimento". There were of course recon units - there's just nothing to call them...

    There's also the REDES Comandos unit, but that's both Cat B and Shock, so it falls right in the same niche. And the Precursores are secretive enough that I can't... or actually couldn't, find any evidence of them even existing before the 80s. And I say couldn't because I think I just might. I'll look into it.

    FrangibleCover wrote:
  • Since the FAL isn't being used at the moment and you say it was admired for its lightness but considered unreliable how about giving it to the M40 team, since their weapon is very heavy and they ideally never be in a position where they fire their rifles? They could also get SMGs but I don't think they should be able to beat anything in a housefight.

  • The problem is by '75 they had basically all been returned to Germany. The SMG's not a bad idea though...

    FrangibleCover wrote:Image
  • It's a bloody terrible picture but is this your V-200 SS-11? It's labelled as the V-700 which could be pure confusion or could be an indication that a similar set up was used by the V-700 prototype, which could be given Swingfire SWIG from the UK to create a pretty mediocre wheeled TD (but better than the SS-11 one if Eugen get harsh about the M113s in moto). Looks as though it has a pintle AA MG though.

  • Holy shit, it is! I'd never seen that before! I actually found the V-300's picture in that site but I couldn't find anything else. The mislabeling as V-700 is widespread - hell, I've only ever seen it correct in local sources.

    Thank you!

    FrangibleCover wrote:I think having the Cournil in as many roles as it could handle and putting as much random crap on the Chaimite chassis as it'll hold will aid community acceptance of Portugal as 'not just another cookie-cutter Blue minor', not that you've not done a sterling job of that already.

    Good assertions, and whatever may come to that end is welcome.
    You know what's ironic, though? In it's time, despite its potential, the Chaimite fleet was absolutely dominated by its basic transport version. But when it was replaced by Patria AMVs in the late 00's, the army's Intervention Brigade into a Stryker BCT, outfitted with specialized AMVs for all roles, accomplishing the vision BRAVIA had for the Chaimite - the one we might yet see in the game.

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    Re: [Non-included nation] PORTUGAL

    Postby FrangibleCover » Mon 9 Jan 2017 10:37

    Broth3r wrote:
    FrangibleCover wrote:[*]No Cat-C recon infantry. This'll upset Eugen and molnibalage. The Precursores could get the BV '75 loadout but I get the impression you want the RPG-7 to be a rare weapon. The M20 is horrible so that implies the M72 but by then you've basically got a Green Jackets equivalent with a good MG and possibly a better rifle. Kept as they are they overlap with antizombies_boy's Cazadores de Montana. What're the odds of a regular training recon squad instead, given that the Paras already compose half of the infantry tab :lol: (I am more than a little upset to see Portugal did away with the Caçadores designation prior to 1980. Caçador brown berets for the Comandos?)

    It's a very Wargame-y problem here: I couldn't find any dedicated recon unit, or even any designation for ad-hoc ones, that could fit the bill - short of an extremely generic "Secção de Reconhecimento". There were of course recon units - there's just nothing to call them...

    Considering that a slight majority of regular recon units don't have specific names (Hussards, Bedouins, Granicari and NORFORCE do; Susaek-Dae, Zwiadowcy, Spejderne, Oppklaring and Razvedka don't) I think Secção de Reconhecimento is fine apart from the length. It's going to be called Mentos by the community within 48 hours of the DLC releasing, so to preserve your beautiful language I'd suggest that just Reconhecimento would do. Keep the Precursores in the suggested tab though, you never know when Eugen will swoop in and deliver the artificial flavour and colouring of 3 recon squads!

    Speaking of colouring, how common are the old Caçadores berets? You may be able to tell that I spent much of my childhood reading Sharpe novels :)
    FrangibleCover wrote:[img]Actually_a_V-200_you_muppets.JAYPEHG[/img]
    [*]It's a bloody terrible picture but is this your V-200 SS-11? It's labelled as the V-700 which could be pure confusion or could be an indication that a similar set up was used by the V-700 prototype, which could be given Swingfire SWIG from the UK to create a pretty mediocre wheeled TD (but better than the SS-11 one if Eugen get harsh about the M113s in moto). Looks as though it has a pintle AA MG though.[/list]

    Holy shit, it is! I'd never seen that before! I actually found the V-300's picture in that site but I couldn't find anything else. The mislabeling as V-700 is widespread - hell, I've only ever seen it correct in local sources.

    Thank you!

    The trick, you see, is to look for pictures of the V-700 and not find any :lol:. I saw someone try to pass off the Armada as a V-700 with 'SS-11 Swingfires'. Hopefully that image will be enough for Eugen's 3D modellers, if not they'll just have to guess and you'll finally get some help from your local defence community as they all turn up to whine the day the DLC is released.

    FrangibleCover wrote:I think having the Cournil in as many roles as it could handle and putting as much random crap on the Chaimite chassis as it'll hold will aid community acceptance of Portugal as 'not just another cookie-cutter Blue minor', not that you've not done a sterling job of that already.

    Good assertions, and whatever may come to that end is welcome.
    You know what's ironic, though? In it's time, despite its potential, the Chaimite fleet was absolutely dominated by its basic transport version. But when it was replaced by Patria AMVs in the late 00's, the army's Intervention Brigade into a Stryker BCT, outfitted with specialized AMVs for all roles, accomplishing the vision BRAVIA had for the Chaimite - the one we might yet see in the game.

    Honestly, Portuguese Motorised being the best deck with which to make an SBCT themed deck would be the funniest thing. Any plans for a V-700 TUA :D ?
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    Re: [Non-included nation] PORTUGAL

    Postby Eukie » Mon 9 Jan 2017 20:20

    Broth3r wrote:It's a very Wargame-y problem here: I couldn't find any dedicated recon unit, or even any designation for ad-hoc ones, that could fit the bill - short of an extremely generic "Secção de Reconhecimento". There were of course recon units - there's just nothing to call them...


    How about Pisteiros? I found it mentioned in Modern African Wars 1: Angola and Mozabique as the term used for trackers during the Portuguese Bush War. And trackers are baaasically recon, right?

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