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Re: [Non-included nation] PORTUGAL

Posted: Fri 6 Jan 2017 22:19
by antizombies_boy
FrangibleCover wrote:
antizombies_boy wrote:Nice job with Portugal (obrigado), the recon tab looks like the best of this deck. But it has hard lacks, how to make it competitive? It will need allies (coalliation) and I would like to know who could be them.

Portugal's oldest ally (indeed ANYONE's oldest continuous ally if you count England>GB>UK as continuity) is the UK, who are actually quite a good coalition partner because they provide Stormers, Marksmen and Rapiers to shore up the AA, improved infantry AT and a proper IFV, the Challenger series to cover the high-end armour, some very nice air options including SEAD, the AS-90 for the artillery deficiency and the Lynxes cover the helicopter tab roles that Portugal doesn't, albeit not very well.

For its part, Portugal serves a similar role to Commonwealth in providing the UK with ground mobility, fighting infantry and an AGM carrier that actually works in real life or in game. It's not going to be Entente level good but it'll be a perfectly serviceable coalition and leaves Spain free to chum up with Italy.

Seryn wrote:Germany!

Wat :lol:

Have you got any justification for that or do you just want Germany to be in enough coalitions that German balance changes become too difficult to see the effects of to be worth making?


Guy, you caught attention. It's probably the best idea. I felt so sorry to couldn't prepare a coallition of Spain and Portugal, because together, their lacks aren't supplied, and hasn't possibilities to be competitive. But like you said, Spain and Italy compenetrates each other very well, as well as Portugal could suit UK.

I like the possiblity to see both coallitions in Wargame.

Re: [Non-included nation] PORTUGAL

Posted: Sat 7 Jan 2017 03:07
by Broth3r
Well... why not both?

I used to argue for an Anglo-Portuguese Alliance, not only because it's the historically more relevant coalition, but frankly, because I wanted to escape from the normal Iberia trope. Let's face it, there's plenty of people out there who see Portugal as just Spain's windshield, or a province of it. Having an Iberian coalition on the game would only reinforce that.

But that's not Wargame's target audience. People who bother playing this game have at least enough knowledge of geography to know that's not the case (or at least that's what i want to believe). And, of course, there is more than enough historical justification for an Iberian coalition. So, why not both? There's plenty of nations in the game with multiple coalitions, and it'd only add to the variety, and thus value, of the game.

Re: [Non-included nation] PORTUGAL

Posted: Sat 7 Jan 2017 10:07
by FrangibleCover
Broth3r wrote:Well... why not both?

I used to argue for an Anglo-Portuguese Alliance, not only because it's the historically more relevant coalition, but frankly, because I wanted to escape from the normal Iberia trope. Let's face it, there's plenty of people out there who see Portugal as just Spain's windshield, or a province of it. Having an Iberian coalition on the game would only reinforce that.

But that's not Wargame's target audience. People who bother playing this game have at least enough knowledge of geography to know that's not the case (or at least that's what i want to believe). And, of course, there is more than enough historical justification for an Iberian coalition. So, why not both? There's plenty of nations in the game with multiple coalitions, and it'd only add to the variety, and thus value, of the game.

Well, the best tank that coalition gets is the Leopard 2A4 NL and the armour tab is pretty thin around the high end (1 card Leopards, 1 card Lince, then about a trillion M60A3 TTS). The helicopter tab is still in pretty dire straits with Portugal's base-TOW Cobra being the best option for killing tanks. The holes in the Support and Air tabs fill each other though, and infantry will never be a problem when the Chamite and 15 point MG3 shock are on offer. I suppose a second Spanish coalition is only fair considering that Italy should also get to group up with either Austria and Switzerland or Austro-Switzerland.

I think Iberia is going to be a pretty weak choice compared to each nation's other coalition and I'm reluctant to show any support for it because when Eugen get around to Portugal I'm worried that they'll only go for the low-effort screw-Angleterre HONHONHON coalition, which is WAY less interesting. Feel free to propose both but make it clear that one coalition partner is your friend and the other is just some country you happen to share a peninsula with :P .

Incidentally, taking another look over the deck I don't think you need the radar VBL since the FAVs will be Exceptional Optics and non-proto, with the Exceptional Optics Lynx and then the Gazelles and Pinkie a Treaty of Windsor coalition will have a huge amount of exceptional optics recon, even if most of it is redundant.

antizombies_boy wrote:Guy, you caught attention. It's probably the best idea. I felt so sorry to couldn't prepare a coallition of Spain and Portugal, because together, their lacks aren't supplied, and hasn't possibilities to be competitive. But like you said, Spain and Italy compenetrates each other very well, as well as Portugal could suit UK.

I like the possiblity to see both coallitions in Wargame.

Pretty much how I feel too.

Do you have any suggested stats for the indigenous Spanish AT weapons? I had a quick google and couldn't find anything other than an article claiming that the C-100 is wayyyy prototype:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140331130 ... ystem.html
Nothing on penetration though.

Re: [Non-included nation] PORTUGAL

Posted: Sat 7 Jan 2017 13:20
by antizombies_boy
FrangibleCover wrote:Do you have any suggested stats for the indigenous Spanish AT weapons? I had a quick google and couldn't find anything other than an article claiming that the C-100 is wayyyy prototype:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140331130 ... ystem.html
Nothing on penetration though.


All that I know about fire values of Alcotan C-100 is this:

Effective range: 600-800m
Penetration value on static platforms: 400-500mm vs high resistant steel-tungsten // 300-450mm vs composite armours with low reactive value // 480-770mm vs reactive plate over aluminium armours (this last is a bad estimate value because there are a lot of differents light aluminium armours)
One important thing that maybe Eugen would like to use (or maybe not), it's that the Alcotan C-100 is an SPG (Self propelled grenade) designed to attack air close targets too, with maximun efficiency and not like secondary targets.


For more information: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCOFHrkUqBg (short video about Instalaza, developer of C-90 and C-100 series)

Re: [Non-included nation] PORTUGAL

Posted: Sat 7 Jan 2017 13:32
by Lumi
Yes, i like the idea of having the Anglo-Portuguese coalition in-game. Good recon infantry and good shock infantry with transports would be greatly appreciated by the UK. As well as the excellent Portuguese field cuisine.

Re: [Non-included nation] PORTUGAL

Posted: Sat 7 Jan 2017 15:16
by Eukie
antizombies_boy wrote:One important thing that maybe Eugen would like to use (or maybe not), it's that the Alcotan C-100 is an SPG (Self propelled grenade) designed to attack air close targets too, with maximun efficiency and not like secondary targets.


Now that would be fun! A FIST team that has short-range anti-helo capabilities! Or a SAS-clone with a machine gun! :mrgreen:

Re: [Non-included nation] PORTUGAL

Posted: Sat 7 Jan 2017 15:50
by CommanderDef
Isn't there any heavy tank prototype, or canceled order or anything better than M60s? Because, even if the best variant got as good as latest Magach it's not enough. Eugen won't give it more than 17 AP on 105mm gun. Minor nations, including my country got the import/prototype kind of treatment in tank tab to be at catching up to the superpowers.

Another option would be to merge with some other minor nation. There are nations that didn't make it into game but they have somewhat close relations, or simply make a usable mix of unique units. For example making Portugal-Italian force as a one standalone inseparable force for bluefor and Romania-Bulgarian force for the reds. Italy would add some better tanks and artillery pieces as well as radar AA for the mixed army.

Re: [Non-included nation] PORTUGAL

Posted: Sat 7 Jan 2017 16:20
by FrangibleCover
Lumi wrote:Yes, i like the idea of having the Anglo-Portuguese coalition in-game. Good recon infantry and good shock infantry with transports would be greatly appreciated by the UK. As well as the excellent Portuguese field cuisine.

Yeah, to represent the effects of Portugal's main contribution to international cuisine the British CVs in Treaty of Windsor decks should be rated Rookie because the officers have all gotten hammered on the Port :D. That or rate them Elite because after 5 years of Eton and a whole case of Garrafeira there is literally nothing that can stun a man :lol:.

Eukie wrote:
antizombies_boy wrote:One important thing that maybe Eugen would like to use (or maybe not), it's that the Alcotan C-100 is an SPG (Self propelled grenade) designed to attack air close targets too, with maximun efficiency and not like secondary targets.


Now that would be fun! A FIST team that has short-range anti-helo capabilities! Or a SAS-clone with a machine gun! :mrgreen:

Yeah, a FIST with a small anti-helo range would be fun. We could have had it on the Lahti but apparently that was not to be so 525m Anti-Helo and let it use the AP ammo sounds fine :twisted:. Let's face it, a 2HE rocket would be pretty disappointing when it hits.

CommanderDef wrote:Isn't there any heavy tank prototype, or canceled order or anything better than M60s? Because, even if the best variant got as good as latest Magach it's not enough. Eugen won't give it more than 17 AP on 105mm gun. Minor nations, including my country got the import/prototype kind of treatment in tank tab to be at catching up to the superpowers.

Another option would be to merge with some other minor nation. There are nations that didn't make it into game but they have somewhat close relations, or simply make a usable mix of unique units. For example making Portugal-Italian force as a one standalone inseparable force for bluefor and Romania-Bulgarian force for the reds. Italy would add some better tanks and artillery pieces as well as radar AA for the mixed army.

Well, the Danes, Norwegians and ANZAC still have pretty terrible tanks simply because they only really looked at anything better very recently or as a result of the peace dividend. I think Portugal will be fine with the M60A3, if you're making a Portuguese armoured deck you can't expect to do well but in Coalition it's not an issue and Portuguese general is a joke deck because there are, like, three units you wouldn't get in motorised and Portugal's infantry and recon are really nice.

I've got no problem with mashing nations together if they're adjacent or totally useless and they have close ties but Portugal/Italy is just weird. Don't say Portugal/Spain either, Broth3r will hit the roof! Romania/Bulgaria also seems like the sort of thing best represented by a coalition (Hungary can come too if they can find a unique unit!). Nation-mashing is best reserved for places that are too crap to even fill out a deck but still have some good capabilities, like New Zealand or Luxembourg (TOW Humvees and AUGs for the Belgians).

Re: [Non-included nation] PORTUGAL

Posted: Sat 7 Jan 2017 16:23
by HrcAk47
CommanderDef wrote:Another option would be to merge with some other minor nation. There are nations that didn't make it into game but they have somewhat close relations, or simply make a usable mix of unique units. For example making Portugal-Italian force as a one standalone inseparable force for bluefor and Romania-Bulgarian force for the reds. Italy would add some better tanks and artillery pieces as well as radar AA for the mixed army.


Both Romania and Bulgaria can stand alone, akin to Finland or Czechs. Plenty of units available.

Hungary is somewhat problematic, Cat-B East Germany.

Re: [Non-included nation] PORTUGAL

Posted: Sat 7 Jan 2017 16:39
by antizombies_boy
HrcAk47 wrote:
CommanderDef wrote:Another option would be to merge with some other minor nation. There are nations that didn't make it into game but they have somewhat close relations, or simply make a usable mix of unique units. For example making Portugal-Italian force as a one standalone inseparable force for bluefor and Romania-Bulgarian force for the reds. Italy would add some better tanks and artillery pieces as well as radar AA for the mixed army.


Both Romania and Bulgaria can stand alone, akin to Finland or Czechs. Plenty of units available.

Hungary is somewhat problematic, Cat-B East Germany.


I feel the same about Spain and Italy. Spain should be played like unique nation (with poor helicopters and no +140 heavy tank, but it could do it), and with more reasons Italy (what only has problems in air tab and it support tab is one of the best in AA defense of Bluefor). IMO, I prefer see Portugal as Denmark in Wargame, a non stand-alone nation but playable under your own risk.