Making helirush tactics illegal

Terracos
Sergeant First-Class
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu 26 May 2016 09:50
Contact:

Re: Making helirush tactics illegal

Postby Terracos » Thu 14 Jul 2016 11:17

I think it would be the best to just reduce the Stabilizer of any Rocketpod to 5%. Now why is this a change that is good?

First the Rocketpods are fixed to the helicopter. Attacking with them from 2100m on the move to a target is really difficult. Just think of it. The helicopter has to fly straight onto the target with its nose down to ensure a direct line. Additional to this there are loads of effects that actually reduce the stability of a helicopter in flight (wind, vibrations, terrain (mostly for the attacked vehicle, as it changes the line of attack), and the fact that the attacked vehicle can also move). This would therefore slow a Helirush down to the point that just flying over the enemy units will be way less effective and the helicopters have to stop for a high chance of hitting the target. So therefore the attacker has more time to shoot at the helicopter before it can fire accurately down.

EDIT: Just calculated it, a change in the attacking Angle of 0.1 degree in 2100m distance gives an offset of 4m at the target. 4m offset is on almost any target a guaranteed miss. And a change of 0.1 degree is tiny for a flying vehicle.

User avatar
RoadkillRodger
Lieutenant
Posts: 1148
Joined: Fri 9 May 2014 07:24
Contact:

Re: Making helirush tactics illegal

Postby RoadkillRodger » Thu 14 Jul 2016 11:50

ElBubba wrote:Best advice I give to people that feel helo-rushes are OP is to start collecting replays of either them playing against helo-rushes or doing it themselves in a single place (first post in this thread for example). Replays tell so much more than words.

Example of how to do it: viewtopic.php?p=262933#p262933


I'm calling BS on this. By this point there have probably been hundreds of replays posted, in threads like the one you mentioned as well as this: viewtopic.php?f=155&t=56698&p=913770&hilit=helorusher+No2#p913770 and this: viewtopic.php?f=155&t=56455&hilit=helorusher+No2

Furthermore, all that FLX needed to implement sweeping tank repricing was the recommendation of a small group of high-level players (random, nande, razzmann, faust, patton et al). That same group is now recommending change to prevent early game helo cheese.

User avatar
morpher
Major-General
Posts: 3975
Joined: Sun 17 May 2015 21:03

Re: Making helirush tactics illegal

Postby morpher » Thu 14 Jul 2016 12:00

IMO there is no way to remove helirush through price and availability changes. It can be weaken but not removed.

Helirush is possible because there are no mechanics that limit the initial aggression so, unless you want to change how wargame plays, you have to deal with it.

List of welcomed changes (already proposed by others):
  • Remove attack helo as cheap infantry tranport.
  • Reduce the availability of some helos in the HEL tab (do you really need that many escort/Mi25?)
  • Reduce stabilizers from cheap rocket helos.

Grosnours
Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 2091
Joined: Mon 17 Sep 2012 23:00
Contact:

Re: Making helirush tactics illegal

Postby Grosnours » Thu 14 Jul 2016 12:07

Reading this thread feels a bit like being Bill Murray in GroundHog Day. Helirush were a problem (in one form or another, for one reason or another) since WEE.

Rather than shooting the messenger, I'd like to thank him (here Hunter & Random) to again raise the awareness about the helirush issue. We did same way back then during the first wargame worldcup land rushing like crazy stupid rabbits with great success. I do think it had an impact on the final WEE patch solving the issue. Showing by example, especially in high profile events is a good policy, even though I totally agree it sucks to be on the wrong side of the lame.

But I digress. Why are helirushes so effective ?
Two main reasons IMHO, both present since day 1 of the franchise :
1) there are way way too many helicopters available. I never cared about authenticity, but balance-wise all other very powerful stuff is locked down behind an availability curtains. Heavy tanks, unicorns, even planes are nigh impossible to get by dozens. As helicopters greatest power comes from their mobility rather than their raw stats, they somehow escaped this curtain. Of course the problem is further complicated by transport helicopters.
2) the very idea of CVs is terrible. The concept can be gamed so easily it's baffling the CVs are still there. Of course, much much progress has been made on that front (lower price, higher diversity,... ), true, but the core concept is completely rotten. Some game mode like conquest amplify this by putting even more importance into CVs.

This diagnostic explains while helirush was never actually cured when many many other rushes/cheeses/lames were completely eliminated : it can't. Except if they're willing to go against some of the very core of their game philosophy, Eugen will never ever fix those two issues. It's highly likely those are actually not considered issues at all.

As someone already mentioned here, airborne decks exists. They are recognized as perfectly legit decks. Compared to such a monstrosity, limiting the actual number of helos on the ground is a small thing, not going to be fixed anytime soon.
Likewise, the entire gameplay of the game is revolving around CVs, and that's not going anywhere any time soon.

At best, we'll end with a bit of fixes here and there, half or quarter hotchpotch measures not solving much but calm things down. You can tweak rockets HE value or SPAAG supression all day if you want, but you risk doing more harm than good.

To solve helirushes, the game should reinvent some of its core concepts, and I'm pretty certain that won't happen.
Image

User avatar
Rabidnid
Lieutenant
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon 28 Dec 2015 21:33
Contact:

Re: Making helirush tactics illegal

Postby Rabidnid » Thu 14 Jul 2016 12:51

My thought would be to add a new HQ. Make it medium stealth and about 200 hit points. Change the log track to 1, 1, 2, 2, 2. It would be an option like fob and cost 100 points. Stick that in a wood and a heli rush would fall flat on a conquest map.
Image

User avatar
ElBubba
Warrant Officer
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat 6 Oct 2012 18:15
Contact:

Re: Making helirush tactics illegal

Postby ElBubba » Thu 14 Jul 2016 18:41

RoadkillRodger wrote:
ElBubba wrote:Best advice I give to people that feel helo-rushes are OP is to start collecting replays of either them playing against helo-rushes or doing it themselves in a single place (first post in this thread for example). Replays tell so much more than words.

Example of how to do it: viewtopic.php?p=262933#p262933


I'm calling BS on this. By this point there have probably been hundreds of replays posted, in threads like the one you mentioned as well as this: viewtopic.php?f=155&t=56698&p=913770&hilit=helorusher+No2#p913770 and this: viewtopic.php?f=155&t=56455&hilit=helorusher+No2

What exactly is it you are calling BS on?
-The collection of replays in one place so that FLX can easily review them as they come without having to comb through multiple threads and hundreds of posts to find them
-The fact the replays are the only way to objectively present to somebody else what took place in a game and under what circumstances?
in threads like the one you mentioned

This thread is from ALB, not really relevant in this case as we are talking about a completely different game. Posted it to show an example of how to build the thread

Went though those threads found 20+ links to replays (some of which are dead links). Did I miss something, where are rest of the hundreds of replays?
Image

User avatar
F-22
Lieutenant
Posts: 1225
Joined: Thu 30 May 2013 03:13
Contact:

Re: Making helirush tactics illegal

Postby F-22 » Thu 14 Jul 2016 19:14

Rabidnid wrote:My thought would be to add a new HQ. Make it medium stealth and about 200 hit points. Change the log track to 1, 1, 2, 2, 2. It would be an option like fob and cost 100 points. Stick that in a wood and a heli rush would fall flat on a conquest map.


or just allow command infantry to be placed in FOBs.
Then make it so the command doesn't die until the FOB does.

User avatar
Sweedish_Gunner
Brigadier
Posts: 3105
Joined: Thu 25 Apr 2013 20:23
Contact:

Re: Making helirush tactics illegal

Postby Sweedish_Gunner » Thu 14 Jul 2016 19:43

F-22 wrote:
Rabidnid wrote:My thought would be to add a new HQ. Make it medium stealth and about 200 hit points. Change the log track to 1, 1, 2, 2, 2. It would be an option like fob and cost 100 points. Stick that in a wood and a heli rush would fall flat on a conquest map.


or just allow command infantry to be placed in FOBs.
Then make it so the command doesn't die until the FOB does.


You could have it so AA and ATGM teams can fire out the FOB too.

Either way, helicopter nerfs are not the answer. No one goes away from a normal game thinking 'damn those S-5 rockets were really overpowered.'

How often do people call for helicopter nerfs? Never. The key word here is 'spam'.
Image

User avatar
Frencho
Lieutenant
Posts: 1245
Joined: Thu 13 Aug 2015 19:40
Contact:

Re: Making helirush tactics illegal

Postby Frencho » Thu 14 Jul 2016 19:49

Just make the initial deployment sector work without a CV, put a 10 minutes timer on it preventing capture so Helirushers just don't sit a Helicopter CV on it to grey it out in the early game, adjust starting points accordingly (minus 120-150 pts) and call it a day.

Don't you dare touch Helicopter stats, they're fine.

User avatar
Rabidnid
Lieutenant
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon 28 Dec 2015 21:33
Contact:

Re: Making helirush tactics illegal

Postby Rabidnid » Thu 14 Jul 2016 19:58

F-22 wrote:
Rabidnid wrote:My thought would be to add a new HQ. Make it medium stealth and about 200 hit points. Change the log track to 1, 1, 2, 2, 2. It would be an option like fob and cost 100 points. Stick that in a wood and a heli rush would fall flat on a conquest map.


or just allow command infantry to be placed in FOBs.
Then make it so the command doesn't die until the FOB does.


Unless you are playing a tank deck without infantry HQs, and why are fobs supposed to be hard to kill?

Frencho wrote:Just make the initial deployment sector work without a CV, put a 10 minutes timer on it preventing capture so Helirushers just don't sit a Helicopter CV on it to grey it out in the early game, adjust starting points accordingly (minus 120-150 pts) and call it a day.


If they bring in their own HQ it's taking away from the critical mass that makes heli rushes effective. Also the counter cap of a harder to kill static HQ will stop them from bringing in their own forces from the spawn.

Frencho wrote:Don't you dare touch Helicopter stats, they're fine.


No, armoured transport helis need to lose their armour, there is just no justification for it.
Last edited by Rabidnid on Thu 14 Jul 2016 20:08, edited 1 time in total.
Image

Return to “Wargame : Red Dragon”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 50 guests