Israel tank historical balance suggestion.

Rimgrimner
First Sergeant
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat 25 Jun 2016 14:32
Contact:

Israel tank historical balance suggestion.

Postby Rimgrimner » Fri 23 Sep 2016 14:06

Greetings Eugen & forum

After the usual armor topic being derailed time and time again ive decided to go to the next step, and start a new topic on how you could proceed with in order to give Israel abit of a different playstyle but still relevant stats towards real life data.

We dont have all the details but we have enough to start the discussion. This topic is for Eugen to consider and if off-topic gets posted i will ask a moderator to remove it.


My latest suggestion was this based on information present at the time:


Merkava 1 ingame stats:


M68A1 105mm gun
65% accuracy / 50% stabilizer
13 AP
3 HE

M2 Browning and MAG 7.62

Suggestion:

- Accuracy is too high. The first Merkava had a FCS system called the Matador FCS during the 70's that was implemented in the Sho't Kal. It should be more around the 50/35% accuracy & Stabilizer. Downprice the vehicle to 50 CP and we're good to go on a decent top Cat C tank.

Merkava 2B ingame stats:

M68A1 105mm gun
65% accuracy / 50% stabilizer
13 AP
3 HE

M2 Browning and MAG 7.62

Suggestion:

- Accuracy is still too high. The Merkava 2B was the Nahal Oz FCS upgrade, which would improve accuracy over the other tanks. A decent jump in improvement but it shouldnt have 65% accuracy. 60% accuracy and 70 CP cost would be justifiable. Its not as powerful as the leopard 2. It could also get abit better AP.

Merkava 3B sits well for now, but i would rather swap out the grenade launcher with a LAHAT GLATGM instead. Gives you a more cost effective frontliner. It should have 19AV and 20 AP in correlation with 3D BAZ changes.


Magach 6B Gal


Few mentions:

- The Gal FCS was implemented in 1989 into M60A1 tanks. Their main role in combat was to sit behind the frontliner vehicles with their better FCS and give fire support. currently in the game it has worse accuracy than the Merkava 1. 60% accuracy / 40% stabilizer. It should be buffed to 65% and 55% stabilizer to show that it has a better FCS than the Merkava 2B, which uses a intermediary FCS between Matador and Gal, called the Nahal Oz.

Magach 7C Gimel


Few Mentions:

- The Magach 7C should have less Accuracy than the Gal FCS. It should get 60% accuracy, 50% stabilizer, and 1-2 AP less. Can also get a price reduction to either 90 or 100 points depending on Armor. It shouldnt have more than 16 AV.


Merkava 3 Dor Dalet Barak Zoher

This is the major issue boy. Ive already written up a list of things to change and how to change it to be abit more unique and a interesting choice in a older comment. But ill add it here again just so people know:

Model:

- Wrong model, more like the Merkava 4 currently but hopefully they will get to fix the model. Gave details to Madmat and he said they'd try to fix it :D


Weapon Stats ingame:
IMI MG251 120mm Smoothbore
65% Accuracy / 65% stabilizer
AP: 22
HE: 3

LAHAT GLATGM
2800m range
65% Accuracy / 55% Stabilizer
22 HEAT

- Smoothbore gun's stats come as expected, but there should be a 5% accuracy increase because the Gal FCS is not as modern as the Knight FCS, that the BAZ designation stands for. Proper layout should be 70%/65% for both gun and GLATGM.

Armor Stats ingame:
24 frontal
7 side
5 rear
4 top

Suggested changes:
20 frontal
12 side
5 rear
4 top

- The Dor Dalet armor pack was a composite suite applied to the side of the Merkava 2D,3D and one Magach variant. It was designed to protect against flanking anti tank weaponry. The armor upgrade didnt really upgrade frontal armor, but was applied to the side. By giving it less frontal AV and giving it more side AV, there are opportunities for a more alternative playstyle with a high end tank, rather than attempting to use it at max distance like other superheavies.

With these changes, it could also be downpriced fairly well into a more manageable price aswell.

Yakhont wrote:This quote seems to to be a bit misplaced for Wargame, since the tanks ingame dont have any of those armour packages.

Does the the base Merkavas I to III have better armour protection? Its a really heavy tank. Can anyone summerise why and how its armour should be better or worse than other tanks?

Its armour shape doesnt seem very efficient as it juts out at high angles and exposes itself as a target bigger than it seem to need to.


Ive written a logical progression of how and where the armor will add AV above. the Dor Dalet pack has, in the 3D's case, improved side armor. It doesnt do much for front armor. If we say that the 3B with its new turret gets 19FAV, the 3D would warrant a 20FAV. But the 3D's Side AV would be tremendously better than the 3B.

I'm adding the spreadsheet here because i have managed to make a sensible progression line in stats and armor. I havent gotten around to adding a new topic with the current armor lineup, but i do cover the most important variants for now in the spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CmIy8NPYenhfQarkgTaPGZgRsokLgR-UMOgnANjwXhs/edit#gid=0

May the new discussion commence. :)
Last edited by Rimgrimner on Tue 27 Sep 2016 02:43, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
FUBAR1939
Warrant Officer
Posts: 412
Joined: Thu 13 Jun 2013 06:24
Contact:

Re: Israel tank rebalance suggestion.

Postby FUBAR1939 » Fri 23 Sep 2016 14:53

DLC is not evem out and people already want rebalance.

Pls Eugen, never again do a dlc stream.
Image

RedFive
Warrant Officer
Posts: 400
Joined: Wed 6 Jan 2016 15:22
Contact:

Re: Israel tank rebalance suggestion.

Postby RedFive » Fri 23 Sep 2016 15:07

FUBAR1939 wrote:DLC is not evem out and people already want rebalance.

Pls Eugen, never again do a dlc stream.

Better to get feedback before it goes live when changes can more easily be made, no?

User avatar
molnibalage
General
Posts: 6706
Joined: Thu 1 Aug 2013 22:54
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Re: Israel tank rebalance suggestion.

Postby molnibalage » Fri 23 Sep 2016 15:46

FUBAR1939 wrote:DLC is not evem out and people already want rebalance.

Pls Eugen, never again do a dlc stream.

I'm the opposite side. Do, more earlier it helps reveal the problems.

User avatar
Mitchverr
More than 10 000 messages. Soldier you are the leader of all armies!
Posts: 10646
Joined: Sat 24 Mar 2012 18:08
Contact:

Re: Israel tank rebalance suggestion.

Postby Mitchverr » Fri 23 Sep 2016 15:48

Rebalance might have been the wrong word, it fits, but people will misread into it.

Personally i hate HATE when people try to get balance changes before a release or even 3min into said release not giving time to even playtest (usually saying something is OP that we aint trialled).

But here, we have a pretty good writeup in my view, backed by historical points. Good work, i would personally have called it something like "Israel tank historical accuracy suggestion" myself, but the label is just a label.
Image

User avatar
[EUG]MadMat
More than 10 000 messages. Soldier you are the leader of all armies!
Posts: 15467
Joined: Thu 30 Jun 2011 13:31
Location: Paris, France.
Contact:

Re: Israel tank rebalance suggestion.

Postby [EUG]MadMat » Fri 23 Sep 2016 15:50

molnibalage wrote:I'm the opposite side. Do, more earlier it helps reveal the problems.

Aside from the Bedouin's three weapons & non-STAT RPGs bugs, it helped reveal already known or even fixed ones ... ;)

User avatar
molnibalage
General
Posts: 6706
Joined: Thu 1 Aug 2013 22:54
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Re: Israel tank rebalance suggestion.

Postby molnibalage » Fri 23 Sep 2016 16:32

[EUG]MadMat wrote:
molnibalage wrote:I'm the opposite side. Do, more earlier it helps reveal the problems.

Aside from the Bedouin's three weapons & non-STAT RPGs bugs, it helped reveal already known or even fixed ones ... ;)

Rgr.

Rimgrimner
First Sergeant
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat 25 Jun 2016 14:32
Contact:

Re: Israel tank stat change suggestion.

Postby Rimgrimner » Fri 23 Sep 2016 17:33

FUBAR1939 wrote:DLC is not evem out and people already want rebalance.

Pls Eugen, never again do a dlc stream.


This is something to help the developers. Now ive changed the title to "stat change suggestion", since it was apparantly horrible. ;)

It is important that the devs are being transparent about where things are going. Early feedback is more valuable rather than late feedback. I think my suggested changes are great, and Eugen should definetly consider going this way. There was agreement earlier when i wrote it aswell.

The theme of israeli tanks should be better side armor and great accuracy. I think the FCS's of the tanks themselves should reflect the RL performance in each tank. And ive done that part pretty well too.

Mighty_Zuk
Command Sergeant Major
Posts: 335
Joined: Sat 10 Sep 2016 17:56
Contact:

Re: Israel tank rebalance suggestion.

Postby Mighty_Zuk » Fri 23 Sep 2016 17:46

Wait, wait...
Magach 7C less accurate and less AP than Magach 6B?

Magach 6 in most versions was used mostly in urban areas and for patrols in peace keeping operations (hence hybrid, all around armor) and its FCS, Gal, was a prototype for the BAZ upgrade which included the Knight FCS installation on the Merkava 3.

However the later version Magach 7 and improved sub-variant Magach 7C used an improved version of Nahal Oz FCS.

It's likely they were both designed for different types of engagement, as the Magach 7C was suited for symmetrical warfare in open fields (thick, heavy armor modules up front but no side armor). So I wouldn't say the Magach 7C was less accurate. Especially when it's supposed to engage enemy targets at a far larger range, as opposed to Magach 6B whose targets would usually be in near point blank range.

And now about AP. How can a Magach 6 armed with the same gun have higher AP than a newer Magach 7?

I personally think the Merkava tanks should have something like 10-11 SAV and not 12, because honestly every other super-heavy tank in the game has good side turret armor. Even if it's not as thick, they'd all survive the occasional RPG-7V.
Let the Magach 6B have the good SAV. Not that I would send them into towns though.


And last but not least; the Merkava 3D BAZ fuss.
24FAV is too high, we all agree on that. What I suggest is 21-22FAV and 23AP.
If the armor or AP is lower than my suggestion, then the price should be changed. Because 200pts is not justified for a super heavy with armor and AP that are worse than PACT super heavies.
20FAV and 22AP is also fine but with a price of 180pts.
Last edited by Mighty_Zuk on Fri 23 Sep 2016 18:22, edited 1 time in total.

Kaiser Sose
Private
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed 23 Apr 2014 17:18
Contact:

Re: Israel tank rebalance suggestion.

Postby Kaiser Sose » Fri 23 Sep 2016 18:12

Mitchverr wrote:Rebalance might have been the wrong word, it fits, but people will misread into it.

Personally i hate HATE when people try to get balance changes before a release or even 3min into said release not giving time to even playtest (usually saying something is OP that we aint trialled).

But here, we have a pretty good writeup in my view, backed by historical points. Good work, i would personally have called it something like "Israel tank historical accuracy suggestion" myself, but the label is just a label.


Absolutely Right !

Return to “Wargame : Red Dragon”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests