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Re: MG rebalance complete list

Posted: Sat 1 Oct 2016 10:45
by QUAD
shock need avail nerfs imo

Re: MG rebalance complete list

Posted: Sat 1 Oct 2016 10:47
by nande
time between shots for most MGs pretty much halved. So even with worse acc I'd imagine they have better suppression and scaling from vet. But then again I haven't played it.
Spoiler : line stats :
MG3 has a 20 round burst, 0.8s time between shots and 5s reload.
Belt feds (PKM / M60) have 10 round bursts, 1s time between shots and 5s reload.
Mag feds (Type 73, Bren) have 3 round bursts, 1s time between shots, 2s reload.
L86 has 3 round bursts, 0.8s time between shots, 1.4s reload
with shock and elites, rates of fire are mostly the same. Except burst lengths favor blufor. lMG3 and Minimi both have 20 round bursts. The best on redfor is 10 (lower rof RPD and PKM) or 8 (RPK). And as you upgrade, that only drops.

Armory RPM is fairly representative. Each shot is standardised at 10 supply. There's some exceptions though, like the Type 81 (an RPK clone with less supply use per shot).

EDIT: Mag feds were wrong. Assumed they'd be L86 clones.

Re: MG rebalance complete list

Posted: Sat 1 Oct 2016 11:13
by DeckCheney
nande wrote:stuff...


This stupid concept of diversifying MGs by Bust time/reloads means we'll never get balance unless standardisation happens.

Re: MG rebalance complete list

Posted: Sat 1 Oct 2016 11:58
by MrRand0m2
nande wrote:time between shots for most MGs pretty much halved. So even with worse acc I'd imagine they have better suppression and scaling from vet. But then again I haven't played it.
Spoiler : line stats :
MG3 has a 20 round burst, 0.8s time between shots and 5s reload.
Belt feds (PKM / M60) have 10 round bursts, 1s time between shots and 5s reload.
Mag feds (Type 73, L86) have 3 round bursts, 0.8s time between shots, 1.4s reload.
with shock and elites, rates of fire are mostly the same. Except burst lengths favor blufor. lMG3 and Minimi both have 20 round bursts. The best on redfor is 10 (lower rof RPD and PKM) or 8 (RPK). And as you upgrade, that only drops.
Acc may make up for it though.

Armory RPM is fairly representative. Each shot is standardised at 10 supply. There's some exceptions though, like the Type 81 (an RPK clone with less supply use per shot).


Could you maybe write down how dps is calculated? I tried finding online but had no luck and hidden knowledge spreadsheet wasnt too usefull.

Re: MG rebalance complete list

Posted: Sat 1 Oct 2016 12:01
by QUAD
DeckCheney wrote:
nande wrote:stuff...


This stupid concept of diversifying MGs by Bust time/reloads means we'll never get balance unless standardisation happens.


MGs should have 3 standardized stat settings: suppression (MG3), damage (M60), utility (FN MAG/PKM) with 2 levels of effectiveness per setting.

and then you have Automatic Rifle (RPK/Type 73/L86), SAW (M60, Minimi), and GPMG (MG3).

Automatic rifle has best stabilizer, bonus in CQC but same range as a primary weapon and least ammo. + 5 kph

SAW has stabilizer. +5 kph if AT weapon is disposable.

GPMG has 980 range and most ammo with no CQC.

Mix and match the 3 kinds of MG with the 3 stat settings and 2 effectiveness levels and you get 18 variations, which is fine for balance.

Increase ammo load of line infantry to what 10 man shock is now and revert 10 man shock to ammo load of 10 man line currently; 15 man squads retain ammo, as a bonus.

Re: MG rebalance complete list

Posted: Sat 1 Oct 2016 13:00
by nande
MrRand0m2 wrote:Could you maybe write down how dps is calculated? I tried finding online but had no luck and hidden knowledge spreadsheet wasnt too usefull.
Pure DPS isn't everything. Burst length and suppression matter a lot too.

but for direct hit DPS it should be
CTH * HE * burst length / ( ( burst length - 1 ) * shot interval + reload ) * target terrain modifiers

there's also splash to consider, but I don't know enough to combine it with those more concrete numbers. I'm not certain over how dispersion angles interact with acc (example: using stabs), or how damage drop-off works, etc. But it shouldn't vary much by MG.

Re: MG rebalance complete list

Posted: Sat 1 Oct 2016 13:42
by QUAD
Why doesn't Eugen standardize rate of fire to 350 and simulate rate of fire by suppression value and DPS by accuracy value.

MG3-15 accuracy, 80 suppression
M60-50 accuracy, 25 suppression
PKM-35 accuracy, 50 suppression

Re: MG rebalance complete list

Posted: Sat 1 Oct 2016 13:49
by HrcAk47
QUAD wrote:Why doesn't Eugen standardize rate of fire to 350 and simulate rate of fire by suppression value and DPS by accuracy value.

MG3-15 accuracy, 80 suppression
M60-50 accuracy, 25 suppression
PKM-35 accuracy, 50 suppression


Is the M60 fired by the terminator gunner from M60A1 ERA? :D

Re: MG rebalance complete list

Posted: Sat 1 Oct 2016 14:12
by QUAD
HrcAk47 wrote:
QUAD wrote:Why doesn't Eugen standardize rate of fire to 350 and simulate rate of fire by suppression value and DPS by accuracy value.

MG3-15 accuracy, 80 suppression
M60-50 accuracy, 25 suppression
PKM-35 accuracy, 50 suppression


Is the M60 fired by the terminator gunner from M60A1 ERA? :D


just giving weapons stats to reflect doctrine and add strategic depth to gameplay. M60 men would kill good, but would get suppressed first by most troops (like US riflemen in WW2 and Vietnam) and from there, easily killed by vehicles and mortars. They also could not suppress infantry themselves, meaning troops could retreat from them back into the woods and guerrilla strategy against troops with "damage" type MG would be effective. (I would put Czech MG, M60 Shorty, RPD, L86, FALO, and Bren L4 as damage MGs as well.)

Building on "guerrilla strategy"- 30 Riflemen are escorting Abrams through the woods. 20 VDV attack, target and destroy the Abrams, then retreat away. 8 VDV are left, but they are only worried and now a BMPT can move in to kill the Riflemen.

Expanding on my MG idea in general: GPMG can have ROF of 400 and range, SAW of 350 and stab, Automatic Rifle of 300 and CQC.

Re: MG rebalance complete list

Posted: Sat 1 Oct 2016 14:20
by DeckCheney
QUAD wrote:MGs should have 3 standardized stat settings: suppression (MG3), damage (M60), utility (FN MAG/PKM) with 2 levels of effectiveness per setting.

and then you have Automatic Rifle (RPK/Type 73/L86), SAW (M60, Minimi), and GPMG (MG3).


Hate it. Too complicated already. K.I.S.S.

Identical stats for the following secondry weapons.

LMGs (Beltfed), [Stat], 50% Accuracy, 850m 0.5HE/Shot Range, 100 shots/burst, 10 second Burst/5 Second Reload = 400RPM

SAWs (Magazine) [CQC], 50% Accuracy/Stabiliser, 750m Range, 0.5HE/Shot, 50 shots/burst, 5 Second Reload/Burst = 300RPM

DMRs [CQC], 70% Accuracy, 30% Stabiliser, 950m Range, 1HE/Shot, 1 shots/burst, 5 Second Reload/Burst, = 60RPM

Snipers [STAT] 90% Accuracy, 1100m Range, 1HE/Shot, 2 Second Reload, =30RPM
___

Way too many infantry units are only using automatic secondary weapons- corespondingly DMRs and Sniper Rfiles are poorly represented and limited to only SF/Recon units. This is unrealistic when many nations have their primary infantry doctrines oriented towards long range engagement, or least specialised mountain units that predominantly include designated snipers.