MG rebalance complete list

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Gorganhound
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Re: MG rebalance complete list

Postby Gorganhound » Mon 3 Oct 2016 11:27

of all the things to complain about, complaining about diggers having the minimi, when the nation is probably the weakest in-game and diggers are arguably not worth their points cost is pretty out there.
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Razzmann
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Re: MG rebalance complete list

Postby Razzmann » Mon 3 Oct 2016 11:33

Alright, so Orcbuster and I did some tests on stream, infantry 1vs1 in forests (which are the most common fights) with and without MGs. Depending on how close the outcome was, we did not do that many tests with the same infantry. Also, we did not test literally every inf, but mostly shock and line infantry.

TL;DR down at the bottom

Here are the raw results (sorry for the bad formatting but I can't be bothered to make it better):
Spoiler : :
The unit name behind the colon stands for the winner with the remaining HP, a slash means that there were multiple tests and thesere were the different remaining Health Points. If you can see two names behind the colon, that means that the other unit also won at least once.

Every Weapon turned on:
Fusiliers '90 vs Motostrelki: Fusiliers '90, 6HP left
Stormer vs Mot. Schützen: Stormer 3/5HP left
Motostrelki vs Diggers: Diggers, 3/1/2HP left, mostly due to MG being out of ammo for both
Mot Schützen vs Gevaermenn: Mot. Schützen 3HP left
Stormer vs Rima 85: Stormer 7/4HP left
Stormer vs Commandos 90: Commandos 1/5/4 HP left; Stormer 1HP left
Bochongsu vs Riflemen: Bochongsu 9HP; Riflemen 5/5HP and clearly winning while MG had ammunition

Only MG turned on:
Motostrelki vs Diggers: Both 5HP left but out of ammo
Motostrelki vs Jäger: Both 4HP left, MG3 out of ammo; Motostrelki 5HP, Jäger 8HP MGs out of ammo
Mot Schützen vs Stormer: Mot Schützen 1HP left despite Stormer winning at first
Mot Schützen vs Fusiliers '90: Mot Schützen 5HP left
Motostrelki vs Fusiliers '90: Motostrelki 3HP left; Fusuiliers '90 7HP left
Rima '85 vs Stormer: Rima '85 4/4 HP left
Us Marines '75 (!) vs Fallskjermjeger: Fallsjermjeger 8/1 HP left
Stormer vs Vysadkari '90: Stormer 8/6HP left
Rima 85 vs Vysadkari '90: Rima '85 4/4 HP left


So, what do we learn from that?

  • The Bren L4 and the Type 73 LMG (and other MGs that have the same stats) are indeed the worst MG. Yes, Bochongsu won once vs Riflemen and DIggers won always vs Motostrelki. But, first of all, Diggers have a Battle Rifle which seems to be the best weapon for forest fights (by far), but I come to that again later. The MG has decent burst damage and overall DPS, but the burst length is incredibly short which results in the MG being very inconsistent (look at Bochongsu vs Riflemen) and infantry equipped with it seems to only have a decent chance of winning if they get into combat calm to make good use out of the rather strong burst. And this makes Bochongsu the worst line inf atm.
  • The L86 is not as OP as it looks like. Yes it is very strong (probably too strong considering the infantry wielding it already has a top tier launcher), but the armory makes it look much stronger than it actually is. Again, the DPS itself is very strong, but the burst length fairly short. But still, a strong MG.
  • Accuracy is incredibly important. This might sound obvious, but looking at the pure MG vs MG tests, you can see that the (in)famous l.MG3 lost vs both the Minimi (same stats when it comes to RoF) and the RPK. At the same time, that is also the reason why the Bochongsu won once vs the Riflemen so clearly because their accuracy when entering combat is quite a bit higher than the accuracy of the Riflemen.
  • RPK is actually not as bad as it first looked like. Again, if we look at the pure MG tests, the RPK actually won vs every other MG it got tested against (sadly, I forgot to test it against a Minimi), whereas you can't say the same of the RPK-74 and Lada RPK (which have the same stats).
  • However, if we look at tests with all weapons turned on, we see that Stormer only got beaten by Commandos '90 and won with ease versus every other infantry squad. The suppression from the MG3 is already quite high, but combined with a Battle Rifle, the first one, two bursts usually already panics the enemy infantry and often even stuns them. And from that point on it is just a snowball effect. Only thanks to the high DPS due to their Carbine, Commandos '90 were able to win vs Stormer most of the time.

What is the rough tier list for MGs then?
I think from my original list, not much has changed, only the RPK-74 is worse than I thought:
  • Type 73 / Bren
  • Belt fed line MGs (M60, PKM etc.)
  • RPK-74
  • L86 & LMG 944
  • RPK & Type 81
  • Minimi,MG3,Negev etc.

However, that does not mean the Type 81 and RPK are necessarily bad or RedFor inf is garbage again. RPK and Type 81 are not really worse than the top tier MGs if we look at them in a vacuum and infantry like Mot Schützen are also 5points cheaper than e.g. Stormer to make up for the worse MG (we just have to wait for Lu Zhandui to get a 5point price buff).


TL;DR:

Here is a rough tier list:

  • Type 73 / Bren
  • Belt fed line MGs (M60, PKM etc.)
  • RPK-74
  • L86 & LMG 944
  • RPK & Type 81
  • Minimi,MG3,Negev etc.

  • RPK and Type 81 are not much worse, it is the Battle Rifle and snowballed suppression that wins MG3s the fight, but Mot Schützen make that up with their cheaper cost.
  • Accuracy on MGs very important (Minimi > l.MG3 in a MG only fight).
  • Bochongsu are the worst line infantry atm.

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Re: MG rebalance complete list

Postby MrRand0m2 » Mon 3 Oct 2016 12:14

Razzmann wrote:
  • Type 73 / Bren
  • Belt fed line MGs (M60, PKM etc.)
  • RPK-74
  • L86 & LMG 944
  • RPK & Type 81
  • Minimi,MG3,Negev etc.

  • RPK and Type 81 are not much worse, it is the Battle Rifle and snowballed suppression that wins MG3s the fight, but Mot Schützen make that up with their cheaper cost.
  • Accuracy on MGs very important (Minimi > l.MG3 in a MG only fight).
  • Bochongsu are the worst line infantry atm.


RPK-74, upgrade that sucks hasnt changed :)

I personaly think they should reduce shot time of standard mg to level of others of 0.8s instead 1 and accuracy to 30%, otherwise red line and good portion of blue (with no br) is still not useful. That way instead of 0.077 dps at max range they would have 0.12 and could hold ground to BR+MG3 at least for a time.

Small change like that could at least make line useful, otherwise there is still no point to take Motostrelci or others because mots is 5 point more only.
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Re: MG rebalance complete list

Postby morpher » Mon 3 Oct 2016 12:18

MrRand0m2 wrote:I personaly think they should reduce shot time of standard mg to level of others of 0.8s instead 1 and accuracy to 30%, otherwise red line and good portion of blue (with no br) is still not useful.


Non-MG3 line infantry has better AT.

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Re: MG rebalance complete list

Postby MrRand0m2 » Mon 3 Oct 2016 12:52

morpher wrote:
MrRand0m2 wrote:I personaly think they should reduce shot time of standard mg to level of others of 0.8s instead 1 and accuracy to 30%, otherwise red line and good portion of blue (with no br) is still not useful.


Non-MG3 line infantry has better AT.

Tell that to sk line, rifleman, motostrelci, polish line, ...

Standardised Mgs are bad compared to others, just wait to see shock with them (half dps of minimi).
They will be avoided in best case scenario and mg3+br meta is back.

I hope somrone makes that spreadsheet again, they migt be better but still not good enough.
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Re: MG rebalance complete list

Postby Gorganhound » Mon 3 Oct 2016 12:53

good to see fusiliers aren't the monsters they looked like, so I can attempt to thwart any attempts to nerf them :P

great work though Razzmann, am I right in feeling like MG's will run out of ammo a lot more in the next patch?
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Re: MG rebalance complete list

Postby morpher » Mon 3 Oct 2016 13:24

MrRand0m2 wrote:
morpher wrote:
MrRand0m2 wrote:I personaly think they should reduce shot time of standard mg to level of others of 0.8s instead 1 and accuracy to 30%, otherwise red line and good portion of blue (with no br) is still not useful.


Non-MG3 line infantry has better AT.

Tell that to sk line, rifleman, motostrelci, polish line, ...

Standardised Mgs are bad compared to others, just wait to see shock with them (half dps of minimi).
They will be avoided in best case scenario and mg3+br meta is back.

I hope somrone makes that spreadsheet again, they migt be better but still not good enough.


We will see tomorrow how the balance stand. But for each coalition you can find a line infantry with higher AP then 16.

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Re: MG rebalance complete list

Postby nande » Mon 3 Oct 2016 13:34

morpher wrote:We will see tomorrow how the balance stand. But for each coalition you can find a line infantry with higher AP then 16.
there's EB and Israel

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Re: MG rebalance complete list

Postby morpher » Mon 3 Oct 2016 13:35

nande wrote:
morpher wrote:We will see tomorrow how the balance stand. But for each coalition you can find a line infantry with higher AP then 16.
there's EB, Israel, Scandinavia


EB has mot shutzen as line infantry. scandi has mg3, israel I still don't know.

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Re: MG rebalance complete list

Postby Razzmann » Mon 3 Oct 2016 13:36

morpher wrote:
nande wrote:
morpher wrote:We will see tomorrow how the balance stand. But for each coalition you can find a line infantry with higher AP then 16.
there's EB, Israel, Scandinavia


EB has mot shutzen as line infantry. scandi has mg3, israel I still don't know.

Israel has M72 and M72A4 for line inf.

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