Information about R-77 for China

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keldon
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Information about R-77 for China

Postby keldon » Sat 1 Oct 2016 21:07

Since the new patch is upon us and i didn't see any changes to Su-27SK in the preview this might as well be the time to bring this up. Sources will again be all Chinese, will provide more extensive translations if required.

The RD coalition is suffering from many shortcomings in terms of capabilities compared to other more well rounded/built coalitions. The lack of a truly high-end ASF is one of them. One way to make the coalition more "meta" or rather bring it up on par with many others is to give the Su-27 used by China the F&F R-77.

There are bascially 3 things people needs to consider befor screaming "no" or "not possible on the SK variant".

1) ingame story
2) IRL events
3) most importantly gameplay

For ingame story telling it is basically "everything goes", since NK got the T-90, why shouldn't Soviet hand out some of their surplus R-77 which is also given to East Germany front nation. Especially the second Korean war campaign unfolds in 1991 and the realigment of USSR to its Asian neighbours.

For IRL events i will repeat the reasoning from fine-tuning thread: China was the first one allowed to buy an ASF which is considered top-tier in Soviet Union. It invested alot of money into Sukhoi and the development of the R-77, since the SU after breakup was in serious economic trouble and willing to part from its top tech for cash. Accoring to few Chinese sources half of the initial run of 200 missiles went to China, that would be around 1995.

http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/Class38 ... 230_2.html
Spoiler : :
R-77(西方称为“蝰蛇”)也是带有主动雷达导引头的多用途空对空导弹,是90年代初由俄国“三角旗”导弹设计局研制的,其目的是与美国的AIM-120先进中距空空导弹抗衡。但苏联解体后由于经费的限制及生产线从乌克兰基辅转到莫斯科,使该项目一拖再拖,直到最近 R-77才开始小批量生产,据报道俄国目前仅生产了200枚,前100枚用于各种实验,后100枚准备出售给中国。

(obvious shorter version) so far R-77 just began small scale production. Russia only produced around, the first 100 is used in various tests and the rest of 100 is prepared to be sold to China


Consider the SD-10 (proto of PL-12) was seen in 2001 and the delivery of Su-30MKK with its weapon package (includes a number of R-77) is around 2002. It is reasonable to assume that China got hold of the missile much earlier.

The issue is which aircraft fires it. In this case there are 2 candidates:

The J-8-IIM from 1995 with the Russian Zhuk radar and thus capable of firing the R-77. Being a export plane it is activly marketed as a cheap F&F mid range AAM slinger.

http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/Class38 ... 054_3.html
Spoiler : :
歼八IIM可使用的中距空空导弹有俄罗斯RVV-AE(即R-77,西方命名为AA-12"蝰蛇"/Adder)和R-27P1(西方命名为AA-10A"白杨"/Alamo)中距导弹


The other candidate being the second batch of Su-27SK delivered to China in 1995-1996. It is stated to being a improved version upon Chinese request. The capability of firing the R-77 is one of them, and that version is called Su-27SMK. There is another offer made by Russia in 2003 called Su-27SKM to upgrade Chinese Su-27, but rejected cause J-11B was progressing at the time.

http://www.airforceworld.com/pla/j-11-S ... -china.htm

Spoiler : :
可使用多种空对地导弹。例如每枚重量330千克的无线电指令制导的X-25PD型,每枚重量640千克的电视制导的X-29TD型,每枚重量680千克的反辐射导弹X-31P以及每枚重量875千克的电视制导的X-59K型等。也可以挂KAB-500KR激光制导炸弹和多种非制导炸弹、火箭等武器。增加使用R-77先进空空导弹的能力。仍装有GSH-301 30毫米航炮,150发炮弹。三、导航和电子设备改用最新改进型号,可以根据客户要求换装西方电子设备,如法国仪表着陆系统、多功能彩色显示器。


(obvious shorter version) Added the capability to fire R-77


To be fair this is one of two narrative of how the R-77 and the capability to fire it got to China. The second and more visible one being the Su-30MKK deal with its weapon package.

Personally i think the possibility of a Su-27SMK with the improvments requested in 1995 is not far fetched. Consider the SD-10 got pushed into service in 2001 the expertise and insight on such advanced AAM needs to come from somewhere.

I would again ask Russian forum members how they see this. Any informations you guys can share?

Finally the ingame balance for RD ASF looks like this: J-8C, MiG-29, Su-27SK. J-8 and the MiG (needs its authentic MRAAM loadout) are already mid-tier options, it would be more productive to make Su-27 another high-end RedFor ASF, especially when considering the IRL events/development and ingame storytelling as the reasoning for authenticity.

If this is a no go, rerole J-8C to J-8IIM is still a possibility and it will basically trade place with Su-27SK in terms of gameplay.
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Re: Information about R-77 for China

Postby HrcAk47 » Sat 1 Oct 2016 21:32

To me, China makes a better claim at FnF MRAAMs than Germany - China got theirs in 1995, while Germany got theirs in 1996.

That having been said, RD air tab is abysmally bad (amongst other things that share that description). Even a make-believe fairy tale giving of MRAAMs (like E Germany) would be acceptable.

This is a super-solid claim, keldon. Push it ;)
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: Information about R-77 for China

Postby GARGEAN » Sat 1 Oct 2016 21:33

All for it. If blue side can go full 21 century, why RD can't get a piece?

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Re: Information about R-77 for China

Postby Markenzwieback » Sat 1 Oct 2016 21:43

HrcAk47 wrote:To me, China makes a better claim at FnF MRAAMs than Germany - China got theirs in 1995, while Germany got theirs in 1996.

Hold your horses. The Phantom ICE upgrade (containing the ability to fire AIM-120) got introduced in 1992 with the German Air Force. So it was operationally ready by 1993 the latest.
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Re: Information about R-77 for China

Postby keldon » Sat 1 Oct 2016 21:44

Thanks guys, will do my best to provide infos.

But anyway, still interested in what Russian sources say on this. I take the more pervasive narrative of Su-30MKK is the main one?
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Re: Information about R-77 for China

Postby Markenzwieback » Sat 1 Oct 2016 21:45

On the OP: I'd honestly prefer a buff to 60% accuracy on both missiles instead of R-77s. Carbon copy of the USSR Su-27S should be the way to go.
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Re: Information about R-77 for China

Postby HrcAk47 » Sat 1 Oct 2016 21:47

Markenzwieback wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote:To me, China makes a better claim at FnF MRAAMs than Germany - China got theirs in 1995, while Germany got theirs in 1996.

Hold your horses. The Phantom ICE upgrade (containing the ability to fire AIM-120) got introduced in 1992 with the German Air Force. So it was operationally ready by 1993 the latest.


My sources mention 1996 as introduction year.
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: Information about R-77 for China

Postby Desty » Sat 1 Oct 2016 21:55

Markenzwieback wrote:On the OP: I'd honestly prefer a buff to 60% accuracy on both missiles instead of R-77s. Carbon copy of the USSR Su-27S should be the way to go.


Would also go for this...but mostly because i find it stupid that so much nations get their best available ASFs while the US can´t even into AIM120B :lol:

But RD sucks, so i´m for everything that makes their life less miserable.
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Re: Information about R-77 for China

Postby keldon » Sat 1 Oct 2016 22:01

Markenzwieback wrote:On the OP: I'd honestly prefer a buff to 60% accuracy on both missiles instead of R-77s. Carbon copy of the USSR Su-27S should be the way to go.


This is one way to "buff" it, but honestly the Su-27S is already in an awkward place, a clone to it won't solve the RD coalition ASF problem, but just alleviate it... a bit.

Like i mentioned the mid-tier fighter slot is being occupied by J-8 (potentially even the MiG...), but a true high-end ASF will have to be similar to "meta" ASFs ingame.

Stat suggestion for a Su-27SMK (1995) would be: 40% ecom; 2xR-73 with 60% acc; 4xR-77 with 60% acc for 160 pts.

Alternativly J-8-IIM (1995): 30% ecm; 2xPL-8 with 50% acc; 4xR-77 with 60% acc for 140 pts.
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Re: Information about R-77 for China

Postby Markenzwieback » Sat 1 Oct 2016 22:10

keldon wrote:
Markenzwieback wrote:On the OP: I'd honestly prefer a buff to 60% accuracy on both missiles instead of R-77s. Carbon copy of the USSR Su-27S should be the way to go.


This is one way to "buff" it, but honestly the Su-27S is already in an awkward place, a clone to it won't solve the RD coalition ASF problem, but just alleviate it... a bit.

Like i mentioned the mid-tier fighter slot is being occupied by J-8 (potentially even the MiG...), but a true high-end ASF will have to be similar to "meta" ASFs ingame.

Stat suggestion for a Su-27SMK (1995) would be: 40% ecom; 2xR-73 with 60% acc; 4xR-77 with 60% acc for 160 pts.

Alternativly J-8-IIM (1995): 30% ecm; 2xPL-8 with 50% acc; 4xR-77 with 60% acc for 140 pts.

If you'd force me to choose one, I'd go for the J-8 to receive R-77s. In addition the Su-27SK should be brought up to Su-27S standard (including a missile reduction) and the Nork MiG-29 go with R-60s and some inferior MRAAM to be the lower-end ASF.
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