Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

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Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Mako » Wed 5 Oct 2016 00:36

This thread is to post units from the new DLC that are out of line with their counterparts.

There are lots of people crying "Israel OP!!!1!!"

This is useless and annoying.

As with any addition to a game, some units might need adjustment.

I've made this thread to try and show any cases that have merit, and ignore the ones that do not. There are a lot of the latter from what I've seen.




How to show a unit is out of line:

Post a comparison with all the other units of similar price and role. (Do not compare apples and oranges)

Do Not Post: a Side by Side of one random cherry picked unit

That does not show an IDF unit is too good, it just shows a discrepancy, it might be the other unit is just bad, and the Israeli unit is average.


Do not ignore any stats that might confound a comparison.

Veterancy, availability and prototype status all matter.

Edit: Prototype status matters the least, but it does matter somewhat.

A prototype from 1990 being somewhat better than a upgraded WWII unit from 1970 is not a balance issue.


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Units that Eugen should probably take a look at:
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Merkava MkIIA IFV: Everyone knows why I think. Very hard to kill cost effectively, AGL and armor combination.

Maglan: They combine three things that synergize strongly together into a very cheap and available package. Lots of talk about this like the Merkava IIA.

Anafa Helicopter Transport: It is the same as the Bell 412 for Norway but 5 pts cheaper. They should both be 15 or both be 20

Sheyetet 13: They have 10 rounds for their launcher instead of the normal 8

FKP: They should be a 30 pt unit not a 35 pt one. They have the same stats as Kutie 90 but cost 5 pts more. (No not IDF, but was discovered in this thread)

Barak: Because it has higher ECM and more accurate missiles, it is significantly better (half again approximately) in a 1 v 1 dogfight with a similar airplane like the Yak-141. It should probably go up in price a little bit to reflect this.
Last edited by Mako on Fri 7 Oct 2016 05:27, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby [EUG]MadMat » Wed 5 Oct 2016 00:37

I am MadMat, and I approve this message.

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The Pereh needs a buff (preferably F&F)

Postby CloakandDagger » Wed 5 Oct 2016 00:38

The Pereh is not a bad unit, don't misunderstand me.

It's just that it's completely superfluous.

Why?

Because the Hafiz exists.

The Hafiz is 30 points cheaper. Why? Because it carries half as many missiles. (Also a small armor difference, but let's not joke, the Pereh isn't an M1A1 HA or anything, it can barely resist some extra autocannon fire)

Now, normally, that would be worthy of the difference. The issue is, the Hafiz still carries a dozen missiles, which is overkill for basically all but the most intensive roles.

Meanwhile, the Pereh goes around carrying 24 missiles, and for what?

Nobody needs 24 missiles. Nobody needs the Pereh when the Hafiz is available for cheaper and more per card.

Thus, if the Pereh is going to be so expensive and so limited, let's give it an actual reason to be used. Eugen, please buff it's weapon somehow.
Last edited by [EUG]MadMat on Wed 5 Oct 2016 00:41, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Pleasen, no individual unit's buff thread.

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Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Razzmann » Wed 5 Oct 2016 00:38

Why should being a prototype matter?
Same with veterancy, which should be tied to the price, not the stats.
And the same can be said about availability in most cases.

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Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Mike » Wed 5 Oct 2016 00:41

Razzmann wrote:Why should being a prototype matter?
Same with veterancy, which should be tied to the price, not the stats.
And the same can be said about availability.


Because if it's prototype it can be OP because I said so.

I would compare the ATGM recon infantry to something but it has no equal in game. :lol:
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Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Mako » Wed 5 Oct 2016 00:45

Razzmann wrote:Why should being a prototype matter?
Same with veterancy, which should be tied to the price, not the stats.
And the same can be said about availability in most cases.


You can argue whether or not Prototype status really matters much, but my point is that it's a distinguishing characteristic that has potential to impact the game.

Veterancy and Availability should be taken into account when making the comparisons, that's all I'm saying.


Complaining that the Danish recon upgrade of a WWII tank is not as good as the M113 HMVS is a bad comparison.

This wasn't specifically an example relating to prototypes but because it's apples and oranges.
Last edited by Mako on Wed 5 Oct 2016 00:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Razzmann » Wed 5 Oct 2016 00:47

Anyways, let me start this off (sorry for no pics I am on mobile).

The Merkava IIA is imo the biggest problem. A comparison with the M1IP and 80pt tanks can be made but it gets a price buff due to being a transport anyways.

Now, what is the issue? The problem is the grenade launcher + KE gun + high armour combination. A grenade launcher becomes incredibly more valuable when put on a highly armoured rarget. The IIA can't be one shot (upfront) by anything and even 24AP HEAT weapons need 3 hits.

Gameplay wise it is basically a BMPT that can't be (or only very badly) countered by tanks due to its KE gun. In a defensive positon inside a forest it can be placed so that the max LOS range towards it is 1200m. Too close / dangerous for heavy tanks and too far away for infantry. Smoke does not help either due to its incredible effectiveness even in close ranges or in the 2nd row.
Just to mention one of its strengths.

And thanks to the grenade launcher, panicking, stunning and/or critting enemy tanks is not hard either. 14 shots is plenty and takes a while to get emptied.

Even if we add the price of infantry (10/15pts) it is still incredibly cost efficient. And the downside of having to come with infantry can often be an upside as they can act as shields for units with high AP.
Last edited by Razzmann on Wed 5 Oct 2016 00:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Mako » Wed 5 Oct 2016 00:49

Would it still be very strong if it did not have the AGL?
If there's two kinds of players, those that like challenges and those that want a fair game, pubstomps should make everyone happy.

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Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Razzmann » Wed 5 Oct 2016 00:50

Mako wrote:Would it still be very strong if it did not have the AGL?

Very strong? Possibly. Outright broken (which in my opinion it is)? No.

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Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby karsayor » Wed 5 Oct 2016 00:57

The infantery Merkava, it's like a BMPT but much better. For 10 pts more you get something very resistant to AT launchers, and it can even smash other tanks. Ok it's slower and a bit less armored on the side, but most of time you use it to come after your infantery and it just melts everything in forests because it faces infantery with it's 18 AV. Something should be done about it.

EDIT : Ninja by Razzmann :)

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