Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

delor
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Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby delor » Wed 5 Oct 2016 05:44

Still soaking in the new ATGM guys- immunity to being mortar-ed to death paired with the ability to one-shot T-80s is pretty frightening, but that price tag is huge.

The Merkava IIA, as discussed, is the obvious go-to for complaints. It's already been covered, but you're basically buying an M1IP, but you also get BMPT-like anti-infantry and stun capability built in without the BMPT's inability to deal with heavy armor. It's easily 5-15 points too cheap.

To throw an odd one out here, what about the supply cost of the MAR-290?
(I'm assuming the supply cost listed in the mod tools are for a full reload, not per-shot, otherwise the situation is waaaay crazier)

TL;DR - The MAR-290 is an Urugan with +50% ROF and -22% supply consumption for just +12.5% cost. Increase resupply cost to 400.

Eye-burning wall of text spoilered for sanity:
Spoiler : :
MAR-290 (90 points, 3 at trained or 2 at hardened)
60 HE, splash 9048, dispersion 3640m
266 supply, 120s reload

Urugan (120 points, 2 at trained or 1 at veteran)
176 HE, splash 6864, dispersion 4550m
1008 supply, 180s reload

Now, I don't know the damage dropoff formula- and would love to learn it. This could change things. However, let's just assume it's linear for now and if someone wants to explain how it really works we all learn something.

Area increases with radius or diameter squared. So, working with those values:
MAR-290 damage density = 370 = ((60 * 9048 * 9048) / (3640 * 3640))
Urugan damage density = 400 = ((176 * 6864 * 6864) / (4550 * 4550))

So, the Urugan's a bit better boom per area. It's also longer ranged, which also means it'll get better range scaling, and it's nuking a noticeably larger area. For a single unit and disregarding supply, that sounds pretty good...

... except you can buy 50% more MARS 290 units, firing 50% faster (3 shots in the time an Urugan takes 2), using only 26% the supply per shot.

Work out all the numbers and what you get is the MARS 290 is an Urugan with finer control over the placement, +50% ROF, and -22% supply consumption, for +12.5% cost.

Easy fix, however. Just increase the supply cost to 400. Now its supply consumption is pretty similar to the Urugan's. The Urugan offers you better damage density (because it's longer range == more range scaling), the MAR 290 offers you finer control over your shot placement and +50% ROF.

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Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby insurgentdude » Wed 5 Oct 2016 05:56

Maglan are fucking annoying.
Make them a 5 man squad, or give them 4 missiles.
They're ridiculous as is as they're effective against inf and super effective against vehicles.

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Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Randomletters » Wed 5 Oct 2016 06:02

Mako wrote:This seems like a somewhat limited analysis, 80pt tanks typically don't spend most of their time trying to duel with each other at max range. (Since an ATGM or 120 pt tank is likely to just murder them)

Of the entire list of tanks I posted the only one able to beat a Merk 2B in a slugfest was the K1, at 1925m.
The importance of max range penetrations by both tanks is that it's the easiest way to tell if two tanks are equal.
The easiest way to calculate tank performance in straight up brawls is:
1.) Find the ranges where both tanks can penetrate eachother with frontal hits (T-72M1 v Merk 2B = 1925m)
2.) Find the damage per shot (T-72 = 1, Merk 2B = 2)
3.) Calculate shots to kill ( T-72 = 10, Merk 2B = 5)
4.) If necessary, it isn't here, look at ROF (T-72 = 7 RPM, Merk 2B = 9 RPM)

18 front armor also runs into the issue where small steps in stats equate to large increases in battlefield efficiency, in this case due to the fact that nearly all of the tanks at below 80 point cost have 16 or lower AP necessitating closing 350m to penetrate while having less than 15 FAV themselves.


To add another gripe to the list, the Galil ARM on the Givati seems to be slightly overperforming. I may just feel that way because of how much Givati spam I've seen today though.

+1 to 5 man Maglan squads or an ammo nerf.

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Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby DeckCheney » Wed 5 Oct 2016 06:55

[EUG]MadMat wrote:
And since no one can prove anything due to Israel's tradition of secrecy, well ... we'll all be left with speculations. As from the start .


The same is true about the DPRK, yet you gave them a bunch of crap units.
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Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby ToTheMetal » Wed 5 Oct 2016 08:03

Mako wrote:Lower the armor?

Yes, lower the armour.
Merkava 2 by no means deserves 18 armour it currently has. The most armour Merkavas up to and including 2 deserve is 14. We're talking about pure steel armour in the end. Composite M1IP has 17, Composite T-72B1 has 15, Composite Leopard 2A1 has 16. Then we have the Merkava 2 which scores 18 with pure steel armour (yes, I know it's spaced but still). If we're hearing that stupid "Engine compartment adds armour" argument then I request Scorpions to have 7 frontal armour, and the vast majority of tanks would have their rear armour thicker than their sides.
From gameplay perspective this armour power creep isn't healthy either - tanks were already tough to deal with even with their supposedly hard counters (ATGMs that is). To counter those stupid Merkavas 2 reliably I have to field tanks 1.5 times as expensive (Chally Mk.2, M1A1).
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Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby QUAD » Wed 5 Oct 2016 08:22

^all I read was bla bla bla, real life example, bla bla bla, realism.

Outside of the tank that must not be named and the Machbet, most Israeli units need only supply or price nerfs.
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Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Wirri » Wed 5 Oct 2016 08:24

QUAD wrote:^all I read was bla bla bla, real life example, bla bla bla, realism.

Outside of the tank that must not be named and the Machbet, most Israeli units need only supply or price nerfs.


Which is the tank that must not be named?
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Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby CommanderDef » Wed 5 Oct 2016 08:45

Killertomato wrote:I just don't think Derby deserves 70% acc.

Why is it better than AMRAAM or R-77?

It has lower range, 7000 against 7700. I don't know how much it matters though, since the aircraft always fire it.

I like AGL on tanks. Using Moderna for it's AC for a long time. But the certain transport could get +10 price. Otherwise, the tanks are kinda ok. Stronger than most other countries, but not necessarily OP. My concern for the whole pack is Israel getting very good units in almost every category. Even the militia has the best militia grade AT, 50% acc, the Sherman 15pt spam vehicle has much better stats than T34s that REDFOR is spamming, even the recon tank is slightly better than other 30pt recon tanks. Infantry from 1975 are armed with RPG-7V for which Morskaya had to wait to '90 version. Most accurate ATGMs, both on infantry and vehicles + long range flavor. Sturm is a piece of garbage, can't match Hummer MAPATS and that's the unit with same price. AA recon is nice unit, I wish more countries had this kind of unit.

My top hated unit is the Maglan. Missiles from nowhere, almost no way to spot the source and damn those missiles hurt.
Last edited by CommanderDef on Wed 5 Oct 2016 09:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Rabidnid » Wed 5 Oct 2016 08:53

Well, my Moto Schutzen 90 just got trampled by Merkava 2As. Armour plus AGLs plus all those heavily armoured APCs mean they can push infantry out of a wood without their own infantry.
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Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Harout » Wed 5 Oct 2016 09:39

DeckCheney wrote:
[EUG]MadMat wrote:
And since no one can prove anything due to Israel's tradition of secrecy, well ... we'll all be left with speculations. As from the start .


The same is true about the DPRK, yet you gave them a bunch of crap units.


here here
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