Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

User avatar
[EUG]MadMat
More than 10 000 messages. Soldier you are the leader of all armies!
Posts: 15464
Joined: Thu 30 Jun 2011 13:31
Location: Paris, France.
Contact:

Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby [EUG]MadMat » Wed 5 Oct 2016 09:50

DeckCheney wrote:
[EUG]MadMat wrote:
And since no one can prove anything due to Israel's tradition of secrecy, well ... we'll all be left with speculations. As from the start .


The same is true about the DPRK, yet you gave them a bunch of crap units.

Sure, highly secretive tinkered 1950-era tech compares rightly with Israel military-industrial complex.

User avatar
Harout
Sergeant First-Class
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun 18 May 2014 16:46
Contact:

Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Harout » Wed 5 Oct 2016 10:16

[EUG]MadMat wrote:
DeckCheney wrote:
[EUG]MadMat wrote:
And since no one can prove anything due to Israel's tradition of secrecy, well ... we'll all be left with speculations. As from the start .


The same is true about the DPRK, yet you gave them a bunch of crap units.

Sure, highly secretive tinkered 1950-era tech compares rightly with Israel military-industrial complex.


You cant just ignore military capability of the great leader. French army is often OP in Napoleonic games cause their stats are judged on their performance under Napoleon. It is famously said that Kim jong il's sunglasses equal thirty thousand strelas that will smite the invaders from the skies!
Image

Sigirdiwarth
Chief Warrant Officer
Posts: 508
Joined: Mon 5 Jan 2015 12:08
Contact:

Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Sigirdiwarth » Wed 5 Oct 2016 10:22

[EUG]MadMat wrote:Sure, highly secretive tinkered 1950-era tech compares rightly with Israel military-industrial complex.

50's bullets kill just as dead as those from the late 90's.
Either way, please take a look at the red dragon buff thread. There are MANY ways to make the DPRK not suck (too much).
Image

User avatar
Frencho
Lieutenant
Posts: 1245
Joined: Thu 13 Aug 2015 19:40
Contact:

Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Frencho » Wed 5 Oct 2016 10:30

Operation Ivy wrote:
Frencho wrote:P.S : I think this has always been a sound rule of thumb when it comes to balance:
High AP values, High AV values, High HE/suppression/extra weapon slot.
Pick two.
When it comes to the Merkava line, gameplay wise I'd pick the High AP (to deal with enemy MBTs) and High Suppression from the grenade launchers to deal with soft skinned vehicles or infantry.

Reasoning: Tzahal infantry tab is average, and lack any IFV.


The thing is, if you nerf the FAV of it by only 1, it will get hard countered by anything with a high end AT weapon like the RPG-29. 2 VDV'90 squads for 50 points would completely shut down a 90 pt unit. Forests would become a no go area for Israel because you will either get a RPG-29 to the face or Napalm rounds.


And that's exactly the point. All other IFVs get frontally hard countered by high end AT launchers.
At the moment you pay 80 pts for the tank transport and 10 for the infantry squad.
If Merkava II armour is not nerfed, then with the current stats price the unit needs to be bumped by 10 - 15 points.

Do you see yourself paying 125 points to field an infantry squad?

On the other hand remove or overnerf the grenade launchers, and you make the deck weaker with a serious gap.

Israel has no trouble dealing with enemy armour (ATGMs, air tab, helicopters, tank tab) but it's infantry tab and FSV tab are mediocre. I don't see how Tzahal without competitively priced grenade launcher MBTs could effectively grind in forest and city fights...

Besides everyone is careful with their IFVs inside cities and forests and send them knowing they can get one shot by a lot of stuff, same should apply to the Merkava II, they just happen to have the added bonus of being able to actively engage and deter enemy armour.

Why should they get a free pass on bending the rules?

An armour nerf would force risk assessment when sending them inside forest or cities.

Scheintot887
Sergeant
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue 27 Jan 2015 15:54
Contact:

Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Scheintot887 » Wed 5 Oct 2016 10:33

I do not realy think that IDF is over-performing. It is more the fact that the opposing force has not much to offer in some cases.
Still, opfor is not weak. I believe it is depending on the player itself.
Devs, I think the best way is to add more opfor nations. But of course carefully. First of all there is a lot of balance in this game, with another addition of a nation you can easily destroy that balance. Also at the same time users are over-performing on their criticisms. Some may don't realize that they're even doing that.

So the trick is to find the middle, between.
Last edited by Scheintot887 on Wed 5 Oct 2016 10:36, edited 1 time in total.

Sigirdiwarth
Chief Warrant Officer
Posts: 508
Joined: Mon 5 Jan 2015 12:08
Contact:

Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Sigirdiwarth » Wed 5 Oct 2016 10:36

Are... are you guys seriously basing your argument on the fact that a tank could lose its advantage while fighting infantry in forests?
Image

User avatar
[EUG]MadMat
More than 10 000 messages. Soldier you are the leader of all armies!
Posts: 15464
Joined: Thu 30 Jun 2011 13:31
Location: Paris, France.
Contact:

Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby [EUG]MadMat » Wed 5 Oct 2016 10:38

Sigirdiwarth wrote:Are... are you guys seriously basing your argument on the fact that a tank could lose its advantage while fighting infantry in forests?

You must be new here ... :lol:

User avatar
chykka
Brigadier
Posts: 3387
Joined: Wed 28 Nov 2012 14:55
Location: Canada, Alberta
Contact:

Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby chykka » Wed 5 Oct 2016 10:43

Abrams are pretty good at forests too.
Image

User avatar
Borscht
Sergeant First-Class
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed 30 Oct 2013 15:44
Contact:

Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Borscht » Wed 5 Oct 2016 10:45

It seems like not a lot of people here have read about the first Chechen war and the Assault on Grozny that was a fail of epic proportions. Pretty much a textbook example on how not to fight in urban areas.
SOUP OF GLORIOUS DESIGN

Mighty_Zuk
Command Sergeant Major
Posts: 335
Joined: Sat 10 Sep 2016 17:56
Contact:

Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Mighty_Zuk » Wed 5 Oct 2016 10:46

If I may, the Merkava 2A as a transport is lacking ammunition and is the ONLY "IFV" you can get. Every APC is literally just 7.62mm MMGs, and in best case scenario a 0.5cal, with no good enough armor to survive an urban combat.

If we examine the complete opposite (Eastern Bloc) we can see infantry carried regularly by BMP-1 packing 73mm guns with good HE, and BMP-2 packing 30mm guns with good HE and suppression. You can dismount the infantry in a town, and send the transports on a rampage. Bring a few 90pts tanks and you can do some serious damage.

The Achzarit? It may save you from a helicopter rocket attack or maybe small autocannons for a few seconds, but that's about it. When the infantry dismounts, you can at best use them as temporary shields for the infantry, IF you're in conquest mode. 10FAV on Achzarit or 8FAV on Nagmachon won't hold up much.

Even if the Merkava 2A is a bit extreme, it can compensate at least partially for the lack of mobile firepower for the infantry.

Anyone who enjoyed the occasional MurderSchutzen spam can tell these BMPs come in REALLY handy

Return to “Wargame : Red Dragon”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 52 guests