Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

nande
Lieutenant
Posts: 1217
Joined: Tue 30 Sep 2014 02:31
Contact:

Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby nande » Fri 7 Oct 2016 00:34

Mako wrote:Where is that supported in the graph?
the percentages are supported by ingame tests. Plenty of them.
viewtopic.php?f=155&t=54936

User avatar
Mako
General
Posts: 7352
Joined: Sun 5 May 2013 20:00
Location: Cascadia
Contact:

Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Mako » Fri 7 Oct 2016 00:39

nande wrote:
Mako wrote:Where is that supported in the graph?
the percentages are supported by ingame tests. Plenty of them.
viewtopic.php?f=155&t=54936


No, the numbers you mentioned don't appear on the graph.
If there's two kinds of players, those that like challenges and those that want a fair game, pubstomps should make everyone happy.

nande
Lieutenant
Posts: 1217
Joined: Tue 30 Sep 2014 02:31
Contact:

Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby nande » Fri 7 Oct 2016 00:42

they're the two squares.

User avatar
Razzmann
General
Posts: 7497
Joined: Fri 7 Mar 2014 15:29
Location: The land of flowing beer and Sauerkraut.
Contact:

Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Razzmann » Fri 7 Oct 2016 00:54

Mako wrote:
nande wrote:
Mako wrote:Where is that supported in the graph?
the percentages are supported by ingame tests. Plenty of them.
viewtopic.php?f=155&t=54936


No, the numbers you mentioned don't appear on the graph.

The squares represent the Barak II shooting at the Yak and vice verca. Both on veteran.

User avatar
Mako
General
Posts: 7352
Joined: Sun 5 May 2013 20:00
Location: Cascadia
Contact:

Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Mako » Fri 7 Oct 2016 00:57

nande wrote:they're the two squares.


Ah, you're showing the two planes shooting a missile at each other.


Yes, more accuracy and ECM mean it will do better in a head on pass.

The plane is best suited for a 1v1 engagement, it does not have the missiles or range to work well as a bomber killer by loitering and lobbing missiles.

In this context it has a significant advantage.

This is an important point in terms of judging the plane and I'm very glad you showed this.


If the other planes at the pricepoint don't have more range and/or missiles it should undeniably go up in price.

I think they tend to though so there's some discussion on how big of a deal this capability (1v1 joust) is for the plane. Another seems to think it is important.

That will determine if it should be more expensive than those planes and maybe by how much.
If there's two kinds of players, those that like challenges and those that want a fair game, pubstomps should make everyone happy.

User avatar
Operation Ivy
Master Sergeant
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed 5 Oct 2016 00:56
Contact:

Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Operation Ivy » Fri 7 Oct 2016 01:12

Concerning Israeli Infantry:

Tested a little against a couple of red for units.

Rovait are really good for 10 points. They destroyed Motostrelski 90 with 4 hp left on long range and 6 hp left on medium range. They also won against the czech Motostrelci on long range with 5 hp left but lost on medium range with them having 4 hp left.

Givati are on par with Morskaya Pekhota on long range but they murder them on medium range with 10 hp left. They also win against Murderschützen '90 on long range with 8 hp left and are on par with them at medium range. Lehka don't stand a chance at 20pt.

Shayatet 13 get slaughtered on long range vs. Spetznaz Gru for obvious reasons with them having 8 hp left. On medium range they win however with 5 hp left. Shayatet 13 also win against Kommandosi on long range and are on par with them on medium range. Specialni Jednotky win against them on long range with 4 hp left and are on par with them on medium range.

Obviously take it with a grain of salt though because of the RNG involved. I think you can say however, that the Israeli infantry is above average or even strong. considering long range fights don't happen very often. They can still hold their ground against the strongest infantry though.

You can actually even discuss if the Mk19 is even necessary on the Merkava IIa.

Edit:

After playing several ranked games as USSR, i am very curious about how the balance turns out once the players figured out how to play against Israel. My most notable win was against an low Ltd.-Col with me only being a mid Captain on Plungjin Valley.
As expected, he used a lot of Merkava IIa's, barely using anything else than rovait except for Maglans and a few Shayatet 13. My game plan was to quickly cap my +2 and +1 to gain a point lead and form a defensive line at my +2 and +1 zone. I mainly used VDV '90 with a few other units sprinkled in. He made good use of 2 Kurnass because i got an ASF too late. Crucial on my part where the Ka-52 + Akula combo. I think he didn't had any drakon in his deck and relied on AA Infantry and Machbet. He lost 1-2 Machbet to the Ka-52 however. Another effective unit were the Ka-29TB to stop his rovait approaches. I also killed 2 AA inf units with 2 of them because the simple kept missing. He also used 2 MAR-290s which where quite anyoing. The Makmat didn't do too much. In the end i was able to neutralize his +1 sector to seal the deal.
Now the DLC isn't out for a long time and people still need to figure out Israel in general, but this match and a couple of others gave me confidence.
The Merkava IIa doesn't really feel too strong on more open maps like Plungjin Valley, but on maps like Paddy field, where a crucial choke point is in a forest, there is no way to get control of it against it. In general the Merkava IIa is a defensive monster. If you try to push into a position where those things wait for you...you are in for a bad time. In the end i think he would have done better focusing less on Merkava IIa and more on ATGM units to push between the sectors. Taking out ATGM infantry with his Arty.
Maybe it helps some people a little.

User avatar
FoxZz
Chief Warrant Officer
Posts: 614
Joined: Thu 27 Mar 2014 19:16
Contact:

Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby FoxZz » Fri 7 Oct 2016 03:42

I think the Israeli atgm speed must go down by a significant margin, maybe not to the level of a Milan, but unit being fired at should have time ton unload before missile hits ...

Maglan could also switch roles with Shayetet 13 (which would be flavourous since the Shayetet use RED wepons, so they could use ennemy ammo behind the lines).

Mekava IIA should be only 1 card and prototyped.

User avatar
another505
More than 10 000 messages. Soldier you are the leader of all armies!
Posts: 13128
Joined: Sun 21 Jul 2013 05:18
Location: Hiatus
Contact:

Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby another505 » Fri 7 Oct 2016 03:52

Mako wrote:
nande wrote:they're the two squares.


Ah, you're showing the two planes shooting a missile at each other.


Yes, more accuracy and ECM mean it will do better in a head on pass.

The plane is best suited for a 1v1 engagement, it does not have the missiles or range to work well as a bomber killer by loitering and lobbing missiles.

In this context it has a significant advantage.

This is an important point in terms of judging the plane and I'm very glad you showed this.


If the other planes at the pricepoint don't have more range and/or missiles it should undeniably go up in price.

I think they tend to though so there's some discussion on how big of a deal this capability (1v1 joust) is for the plane. Another seems to think it is important.

That will determine if it should be more expensive than those planes and maybe by how much.



I definitely think 1v1 jousting is the biggest deciding factor for an ASF's worth.

Bombing trains are rare, and even so a plane with more than 4 missiles will have hard time to fire off all its missile base on the engagement (overshooting the enemy plane and have to turn around) and evac time. The ASF is only able to focus on one target in a bombing train

Loitering with more missiles mean really nothing, since almost ever time you will evac once you have engaged one plane, you want to refill , rearm and repair, and for a good chance you want to evac at the moment after the engagement since you are in enemy ADN territory or terribly close to enemy air reinforcement that could instantly send another ASF to finish you off

Lobbing missiles mean really little now too, i rarely ever see MRAAM circles, for one thing, they dont kill enemy planes, at most you damage them and force them away after the first hit.

If MRAAM and SRAAM can fire at multiple targets(which i really dont want to see... too big of a change), multiple missiles actually mean a thing.


The best amount of missiles is 2 SRAAM and 4 MRAAM just allowing it sufficient missiles to prevent RNG to screw up too bady.

but most of the time, 2 by 2 is sufficient and even better since the plane is cheaper and comes in better veterancy
Image
Of Salt

User avatar
Bullfrog
General
Posts: 5308
Joined: Sat 11 Aug 2012 23:48
Contact:

Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby Bullfrog » Fri 7 Oct 2016 04:50

Jousting pretty useful if you're attention is needed on the ground. Otherwise you can mitigate the enemy planes accuracy by dodging the missile. Albeit it's tricky dicky; makes the air game really fun. more than just derping planes at the front.


I wish acceleration and deceleration were factors too for missiles so you could just straight up out run it.
Does not affiliate with members who post in #MakeAmericaGreatAgain
Image

delor
Lieutenant
Posts: 1231
Joined: Mon 21 Apr 2014 23:39
Contact:

Re: Over-performing Israeli Units Thread

Postby delor » Fri 7 Oct 2016 05:26

another505's totally on point here.

Circle-and-lob isn't much of a factor. Even getting a shot on successive other planes is only an occasional thing.

4 MRAAMs over 2 is an advantage, but mostly because you might use those extra MRAAMs chasing a single target, and the Barak II's higher chance to kill with what it has thanks to higher accuracy, HE 5 SRAAMs, and the vulcan pretty much directly compete with the extra chance to kill by getting off the extra MRAAM shots that its competitors bring to bear.

Razzman's graph also even makes it look better for the Mig-141 than it is, because you're going to need two hits to take the plane out of the fight. The Barak II's not only 37% more likely to get a hit on a given MRAAM shot, but it's even more likely to get a kill at all and effectively mitigates some of the damage incoming at it by getting a kill sooner and preventing later shots from its opponent.

Return to “Wargame : Red Dragon”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests